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buffynmarvel

Townie
Joined
Jul 12, 2021
Messages
6
Hello! :D

What are people's thoughts on Buffy and Angel's relationship?
I know it's a massive discussion in the fandom, and there's a reason I'm asking.

I'm a writer, and I got into fan fiction last year and I absolutely love it :)

I'm writing a Slayer / Marvel crossover with an OC Slayer (Tony Stark's daughter. I know, people may think it's overdone, but I love it and this story is so much fun to write). Anyway, I have put Angel in at as well because I do love their overall storyline and the character growth it offered Buffy. However, as I write, I'm kinda wondering about the ages. I'm using season two as inspiration, but keeping it as Selene's personal storyline, not Buffy's, so it isn't a re-write. That said, I had planned on putting the whole Angel/Angelus part in it later on, but I can't seem to get over the ages lol.

What are people's honest thoughts on the subject?

I really want to keep him in the story, but I'm thinking instead of having them sleep together, maybe he can lose his soul another way. Doesn't really change the situation though. I also have addressed this in the story itself where Tony, though he doesn't know about the supernatural and Angel being a vampire yet, learns that Angel's 'a decade older than her' according to Cordelia. He calls Angel a predator and tells her to end the relationship. So I'm not actually glossing over the situation like in Buffy where Giles and her friends did.
 
Puppet
Puppet
I recently got addicted to Darcy Lewis as Tony's Daughter stories, so that sounds like a fun idea :D
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
Shouldn't Stark's daughter be an aged up Morgan?

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
Joined
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Messages
942
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East of Trouble
I have difficulties with his age too, but i think someone who has the fate of the world on her shoulders, an upcoming expiration date AND who has died once already can make an argument that she is (a) adult enough for sex (b) in a unique position to ignore what is essentially a social construct codified as law (though usually one i do consider important).

Bear in mind that 17 is above the age of consent in a large part of the world. Had she and Angel had sex in Colorado, for example, they would have been no legal bar to their sex.

That said, the age difference (I think he was about 26 when he was turned - please check; Idon't remember where i got that number) combined with his living 200 plus vampire years DOES set up a power differential - and this is what makes sex between 'minor children' and 'adults' so destructive. Most adults have a huge power differential and most teens have insuffient life experience or even legal agency. But Angel *does not* have legal agency over her and he is not an authority figure like Giles or a teacher or relative.

So, even the rabid Spuffy I am; i give them a pass, though I think the seeds of relationship doom are present from the start, even without the loose soul.

Regarding his loss of soul, i do not believe it was sex itself that cost him his soul but a feeling of true bliss because for the first time in 240+ years, Angel felt perfect love - so if you can create a scenario where he feels perfect love, acceptance, belonging - he could lose his soul - maybe even without sex.

I know my own most joyous moment ever was *not* during sex - even though it wasn't orgasmic bliss, though the person connected that singular moment of joy and love was my life partner.

Edit: one thing that might have given him that feeling of perfect love could be if she stood up for him with the people most important to her (who had major objections that put those relationships in jeopardy) and made him know he was treasured.

Alternately, her declaring that she loved him enough to give up her life to save his (not risk as a firefigher might do) but actually give him her seat in the lifeboat knowing that would mean her own certain death - that would make a powerful impression. It could happen if she steps into the path of a stake or a flamethrower and somehow survives (a misfire maybe?) Then the moment after when she declares, "I could never let you die!" - that might shock him with the revelation that this woman loves him above all else. I truly believe THAT was Angel's joy - it just happened during sex bc sex reveals feelings and does so with great intensity. I am talking the kind of sacrifice that soldiers do that results in the Medal of Honor.
 
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V
VampireSlayer07
Truth is based on age difference alone neither Spike nor Angel are appropriate for Buffy.
buffynmarvel
buffynmarvel
Thank you so much for in-depth reply! I never thought about any of that :) I like to think that, even though Angel is much older, Selene being the Slayer evens out the power in a way.
Joined
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Messages
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Age
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Age never bothered me. Angel never has position of authority over Buffy and by the time they are together she is seen as an adult in many states, to say nothing of her own experiences as a slayer. As a whole I'd be inclined to say that as long as there is no power imbalance and both parties are willing and of age then age difference is no one's business but the people who are together.

Right, wrong or indifferent age often gets ignored in these shows. Vampire diaries did with basically every relationship Elena has and in charmed only one of the sisters marries someone 'age appropriate' to say nothing of prior dating life.
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
Age is only an issue for me when we are dealing with one person being a minor. Once Buffy is an adult, age appropriate goes out of the window. We don't care when 30 year olds marry 90 year olds... the 30 year old may even be the one with the power!
buffynmarvel
buffynmarvel
You raise some very valid points as well. Thank you :)

Joan the Vampire Slayer

Carpe Spuffy!
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Way to start a ship war! Oof.

No, seriously though - it's been a long time since anyone has asked my opinion on them, so why not, I'll tell you.

I'm way into Spuffy, so my opinion maybe slightly biased, but I'll try to not let that affect my answer.

Generally, I think Buffy and Angel's relationship was ill-fated and doomed from the start. And that was sort of the point, right? I do not doubt they loved each other, but there was just no way it could work. I genuinely feel bad for the both of them. Thematiacally, they were an interesting couple. But as an actual couple, day-to-day, they were insufferable. Way too much melodrama in my opinion.

For years I hated how Angel broke up with Buffy. I thought it wasn't fair because he didn't give her a say in the matter. But now I see where he was coming from. He was doing what he thought was right for Buffy. And he was right.

---bbbeeeecause if he had never broken up with her, she would have never fallen in love with Spike. ;)

@VampireSlayer07 Truth is based on age difference alone neither Spike nor Angel are appropriate for Buffy.

Is it the same though? Buffy became involved with Angel when she was underage. That wasn't the case with Spike.
 
Reason: merge posts
V
VampireSlayer07
Yes it is the same. While in a way Buffy was still young (hardly a kid at seventeen) she is still mature in ways many adults could never be. But rather a say 20 year old is with a 30 year old or a 40 year old, tbat age thing is either there or not.
buffynmarvel
buffynmarvel
Honestly, I love Spike! I definitely ship them as well, but Angel did offer her the character growth she needed at the time, at least that's what I feel. And he was good for her before he lost his soul :) thank you for your comment! :)

Antho

Scooby
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Is it the same though? Buffy became involved with Angel when she was underage. That wasn't the case with Spike.
Is it important ? That’s something that even in real life I don’t fully understand.
For example : if a woman of 17 years old is involved in a relationship with a 37 years old man, there is 20 of age difference. Lots of people are shocked.
But if a woman of 20 years old is involved in a relationship with a man of 40 years old, no one is shocked. But it’s still the same age difference.

If it is a question of maturity, I will argue that I know 40-50 years old man/woman that are completely dumbass and idiot. And there are 17-20 years old man/woman that are far more intelligent and mature than teenagers of the same age or some adult person.

On a similar note, but a bit different I guess, why is everyone shocked when a older woman is in a relationship with a young man but no one is shocked when it is the man that is older than the young girl ?

Where is equality in all of that ?
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
23,982
Black Thorn
Is it important ? That’s something that even in real life I don’t fully understand.
For example : if a woman of 17 years old is involved in a relationship with a 37 years old man, there is 20 of age difference. Lots of people are shocked.
But if a woman of 20 years old is involved in a relationship with a man of 40 years old, no one is shocked. But it’s still the same age difference.

If it is a question of maturity, I will argue that I know 40-50 years old man/woman that are completely dumbass and idiot. And there are 17-20 years old man/woman that are far more intelligent and mature than teenagers of the same age or some adult person.

On a similar note, but a bit different I guess, why is everyone shocked when a older woman is in a relationship with a young man but no one is shocked when it is the man that is older than the young girl ?

Where is equality in all of that ?
It's about life experiences. The majority of 17 year olds still live at home and are taken care of by their parents and are very sheltered, by 20 they are usually out, supporting themselves and seen more of life. To me, there is a huge difference between the two ages.
 
V
VampireSlayer07
True that may be in general but that doesn't apply to Buffy. She has seen and done things that many adults deny, making her very not sheltered and in many ways more experienced.
Antho
Antho
I can understand

DeadlyDuo

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30
On a similar note, but a bit different I guess, why is everyone shocked when a older woman is in a relationship with a young man but no one is shocked when it is the man that is older than the young girl ?

Where is equality in all of that ?
In the olden days, it was common for younger women to marry older men, especially if they were "marrying up" in status. Younger women could also produce heirs whereas older women were less likely to once they passed a certain age.

Even Hollywood still reflects this ingrained view where older actors tend to get more work than older actresses. It's why plastic surgeons make a killing within the entertainment industry, ageism is alive and well in Hollywood and you'll always get people desperate enough to keep their youthful looks.
 

Spanky

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Messages
23,982
Black Thorn
@VampireSlayer07 "that may be in general but that doesn't apply to Buffy." of course it applies to Buffy. She was still a high school kid. Just because she was running around killing vampires she still had the mentality of a high school kid. That's why she got all pouty about the prom and homecoming. She had not experienced real life and assumed that, in the grand scheme of things, those things actually matter. That was the tragedy of the character. To ignore the fact that she was, and thought like, a high school kid is ignore the whole basis of drama.
 
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V
VampireSlayer07
Plenty of adults, and in this case I use the term loosely, act pouty about stuff that many say long term doesn't matter. But they are not high school kids, at best they are ignorant and selfish at worse.

thrasherpix

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First, I think putting the Buffyverse into the Marvelverse begs a lot of questions. The Slayer would be seen as more of a mutant (and not a particularly impressive one at that, if more versatile than most) than a supernatural phenomenon (though it seems Marvel has enough wizards). It also includes Blade and other vampire characters (I think Dracula even exists in the Marvel universe very different from the one on Buffy) which changes vampire lore.


That aside...

Liam was born in a time when older teens were women. I give the character a pass for this despite teasing some scenes (like how he fell in love with her as she was all girly sucking on a lollipop), among other things.

(And while I agree with the current laws, it's more pragmatic than puritanical. Kids are prevented from maturing mentally as fast as they could--I'll explain why I think the "brain doesn't mature until age 25" is BS if anyone cares--so it's necessary, or everyone would be taking advantage of them, from business to military to pervs, though that's not to say everyone who would try to treat teens as adults was a predator or exploiter.

Those forced to grow up through adversity, as Buffy did, can be different in my book, and as others pointed out, in some states, and definitely in previous decades, it wouldn't have been an issue. Just because Buffy is into prom doesn't mean she's stuck in the teen mind, she wants a life that's her own rather than one that was forced upon her, and she continues with trying to have a normal life beyond a Slayer in her adult years as well.

And even in Dawn's case, I believe her sarcasm about how she must be protected from words or concepts that she already knows about is well warranted, and in fact a disservice to her since it makes her more vulnerable rather than less to what she'll inevitably face.)



(I was just saying to someone after we saw Angel: Orpheus that it seemed a scene was cut. Fred asks the others if they think Connor/Cordy was creepy, and it looked to me like Willow was about to say something and then it's over. Maybe I imagined it, it was so fast and I'm not going to look it up again. Thing was, I was imagining her saying something like, "The age difference between Angel and Buffy was larger, and even knowing the dangers they nearly made love again after he came back from the Hell Buffy sent him to. And then..."

I had a list, but I forget it now...and also when Wes said he kept a woman prisoner in his closet and Willow is like "yikes" that it would've been a perfect time to say how she took a teen to a magic crack house before injuring her by recklessly driving in a stolen car laughing like a loon. But I digress. Though I want to add I'm not throwing shade here on other characters, just that it could've been a fun, twisted conversation, and I suspect it was originally meant to be before someone cut it out, either to keep it "family friendly" and/or to prevent too much crossover bleeding.)



That aside, I didn't have a problem with the idea of it for reasons stated above, though it was rubbed in my face a bit too much. I don't watch the show for the turgid soap opera aspects, that's something I more tolerate. I prefer that aspect more subtle and less dramatic. Thankfully, there were many breaks from it, and that might've been what saved it for me.

I personally don't see how sex would be necessary for it to happen, however. At the same time, I'd think a guilt-ridden soul would feel terrible at feeling so well as to prevent perfect happiness anyway, though I explain that to myself as Angel feeling like he can actually be a person again rather than neither a vampire nor a man in eternal loneliness.

I absolutely LOVE the Angelus arc. This is when the show stopped being tasty junk food for the mind fun to watch in the same spirit as telling campy stories around a campfire, and became a favorite of mine. I'd have ratcheted that arc up to American Horror Story levels if I could so that it could no longer be viewed on Prime Time (today only HBO, FX, or Showtime would run it). This makes all the Bangel before worth it to me, as well as more compelling after when his soul is restored. But the sexual aspect isn't necessary to it for me (I'm neutral, don't care if it's left in or if something else replaces it).

(I don't personally ship them, it's the story I like, and stories are more relatable if they're not so absurdly sanitized, be it by the Hays Code or "cancel culture.")


ETA: if I were to do a crossover, I'd have say a seeming demon infestation that comes from a warp in reality of the Marvelverse. The latter has enough of those. Buffy and friends (possibly all of Sunnydale) get sucked into the Marvelverse, but then everything changes (possibly even the memories of the characters).

Since they appear and make a difference then they come to the attention of SHIELD, similar to Captain America, and things just snowball from there. (More so if an entire town appears out of nowhere.)

The one thing here is to either erase Xander's memories of these comics, or have him remember but make it different in some ways so it throws him off. Or he can "know too much" that puts them all under extreme suspicion. They're certainly not going to believe they're part of a comic series (save maybe Dr. Strange)! (Then the characters can laugh off that maybe in some other universe someone makes comics about them, and how Buffy would like to meet that person and punch him in the face. :p )
 
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buffynmarvel
buffynmarvel
This is a complete AU version, so I can easily mix them. Plus it's set in 2014 (after CA:WS & before AoU). The series will progress across AoU in the second book. I'm also switching up certain themes etc from the movies/show :)

buffynmarvel

Townie
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6
Ok, you all bring up so many good points. Thank you so much! I appreciate the time you've all taken to reply :) xx
 

Antho

Scooby
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In the olden days, it was common for younger women to marry older men, especially if they were "marrying up" in status. Younger women could also produce heirs whereas older women were less likely to once they passed a certain age.

Even Hollywood still reflects this ingrained view where older actors tend to get more work than older actresses. It's why plastic surgeons make a killing within the entertainment industry, ageism is alive and well in Hollywood and you'll always get people desperate enough to keep their youthful looks.
Yeah but none of that is right in my eyes 👀.

I stand to my opinion. Older woman with a younger man is insulted. In France We have a word for a woman like that : COUGAR ( sorry don’t know how to translate it in English). But we don’t have a word for an older man with a younger woman 😞. It’s sexist. And it is a man that say that !
 
Priceless
Priceless
Cougar is cougar in English and mean the same thing re older women/younger men

TriBel

Scooby
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Manchester
On a similar note, but a bit different I guess, why is everyone shocked when a older woman is in a relationship with a young man but no one is shocked when it is the man that is older than the young girl ?

Where is equality in all of that ?
There isn't any. People in the UK laugh at Macron because of the 25 year difference between him and his older wife but say little or nothing about the 24 year difference between Boris and the younger Carrie. Double standards. Personally, I think Brigitte got the best deal. Boris? *Shudder*. I do think there's a problem with the age difference when they first meet though. Wasn't he 15? I'd feel the same if the genders were reversed.

COUGAR ( sorry don’t know how to translate it in English).
It's COUGAR in English. 😊
 

Antho

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Suddenly I feel stupid 😒. Didn’t know that Cougar was an English term. But that’s cool because at least you get the sense of what I tried to say. You get the idea. Still Cougar is a pejorative term, very insulting for a woman. In France we don’t have a word to qualify an older man with a younger woman, do you have one ?

Another example : when a woman slept with many guys, people say she is a slxxxxT ( you get the idea ^^) but for a man in France we say that he is a « Don Juan » ! For those who don’t have the ref « Don Juan » is a character from a piece of theater from Molière. The character was described as someone who is elegant, who likes enjoying life with no problem of consciousness and who adores being seductive, being desired, being loved, and to collect women, one after the other. So today a men who slept with hundreds womens is a Don Juan. That is pretty eloquent for me !

Wasn't he 15?
He was. But the main problem for me is more that she was his teacher.

People in the UK laugh at Macron because of the 25 year difference between him and his older wife but say little or nothing about the 24 year difference between Boris and the younger Carrie. Double standards.
Trump can also be a good example I think 🤔
 

Spanky

Scooby
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Black Thorn
Still Cougar is a pejorative term, very insulting for a woman.
I never really saw it as such. But I don't think Sugar Daddy is either. Or Manther.

Cradle Robber I do view as a pejorative term, though.
 

Priceless

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Suddenly I feel stupid 😒. Didn’t know that Cougar was an English term. But that’s cool because at least you get the sense of what I tried to say. You get the idea. Still Cougar is a pejorative term, very insulting for a woman. In France we don’t have a word to qualify an older man with a younger woman, do you have one ?
Please don't feel stupid. Your English is a million times better than my non-existent French. I bet there are loads of words that are the same in French and English.

There are a lot of horrid words for women (and their body parts) while there are a lot fewer for men.
 

TriBel

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He was. But the main problem for me is more that she was his teacher.
I agree.
Suddenly I feel stupid 😒. Didn’t know that Cougar was an English term.
Don'`t feel stupid. The original word (referring to a big cat) was French couguar . It might have been Canada where it was first used to refer to a woman. So you just took it back. 😊 Your English is a million times better than my non-existent French!
I never really saw it as such. But I don't think Sugar Daddy is either.
Cougar compares woman to an animal. Sugar Daddy positions woman as a child. They're both belittling. Sugar Daddy might not be entirely flattering but at least it connotes wealth.
@Priceless is right...Roget's lists far more negative terms synonymous with woman than it does for man.
 
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