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Dawn Memories

Miss Muffet

"Can I trade in the children for more cash?"
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What are your theories for what the Scoobies' memories are like with Dawn in them? When did Dawn learn Buffy was the Slayer? Did she like characters we never saw her interact with in canon (Angel, Cordy, Oz, etc.)? Are there any arcs that would have played a bit differently?
 
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I think she found out at the same time Joyce did. If the reason Buffy isn't allowed to tell her mum is for her safety, then no way would she have let her little sister in on the secret. How much more vulnerable would a pre teen Dawn be than Joyce?
I think that meant Buffy had to be extra sneaky though. We know she kept her slayer supplies hidden but she must have kept them extra extra hidden because Dawn would be much more likely to go and snoop through her things than her mum was. And if Dawn had found stakes and holy water and read Buffy's diary then she'd have gone straight to Joyce - she's an irritating little sister, of course she would - and while I don't think either of them would believe Buffy actually was the slayer, I think finding these things would have led to a conversation - about living in fantasy worlds and taking things to far and was Buffy OK.
I also think Joyce couldn't have been away from home half as much as she is in the earlier seasons. Joyce is often away 'buying things for the gallery' for a week at a time - but I don't think she could have done that when Dawn was only 11. I don't think she left her troubled older daughter in charge of looking after her younger daughter as a first choice option - especially not over night.
So with Joyce being around more and Dawn in the house poking around, Buffy would have to be extra careful. She probably kept far more slayer stuff at school and wrote in code in her diary.

As I think Dawn would have either been at her own school, with Joyce or in some kind of after school club until Joyce could pick her up - I don't think too many story arcs would play out too differently. Buffy would be off having her own life - though maybe seeing how Dawn still got to be normal and have a good relationship with Joyce while she was the 'troublemaker' on account of her secret identity might have been a further source of resentment for her in coming to terms with being the slayer. It's one thing to have your life turned upside down, it's quite another to have your life turned upside down and still have to watch someone else have the life you used to have.

One story line that might have been affected though would be Xandelia - or at least the beginning of it. If Joyce isn't going out of town because of Dawn and they are home, then Cordy and Xander wouldn't have gone round in the morning looking for Buffy and let in the bug man.
However, if Joyce and Dawn had been home then presumably the bug man would have killed them, but clearly he didn't ... so maybe Joyce did still go away and arranged for Dawn to stay someplace else while she was gone? In which case Xandelia would be unaffected.

Honestly, though, I don't think the monks would have changed that much - not least because they were working to a strict time limit. But also because they weren't actually changing what happened, just the way people remembered it. It's therefore easier to write Dawn in as having been present but not have her presence change anything than it is to have her have an affect on the world around her, change people's memories of how things happened but then have that disconnect between their memory and the reality of the world. It would make her far easier to find if she is surrounded by people whose memories don't add up.
 

IndianaSolo221

Potential
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I think it would have been interesting to see a dynamic in which Dawn knew that Buffy is the Slayer, but somehow Buffy was able to convince her sister to help keep it a secret from Joyce as long as possible (*coughs* bribery!), if for nothing else, than for safety. I could see a younger Dawn having very little interaction with most of the Scoobies. She'd probably think that Angel is way overrated. Oz seems to get along with anyone, so I think he and Dawn would've been cool. As for Cordelia-- I don't think they would've been friends at all. But, hopefully Dawn would've had some people of her own age to hang out/have adventures with.
 

thrasherpix

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I believe that in the comics, one of the "retcons" (for want of a better word, this was revealing a memory alteration so it wasn't a retcon) was that season 2 Angelus grabbed and menaced Dawn instead of Willow.

I wasn't able to find it, but this might have it, and claims to reveal "when Dawn discovered Buffy was the Slayer." (I'll have to try to get a copy of that one...)

 
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I think the idea that Dawn would know Buffy was the slayer and would be coerced into keeping it a secret from Joyce would just be so unbelievably disrespectful to Joyce.
The fact that Buffy has to keep her secret an identity from her mother at the behest of Giles and the council is pretty disgusting in and of itself tbh. She is Buffy's mother - her main desire in life is to keep Buffy safe, and here are these men encouraging Buffy to go off and fight for her life behind Joyce's back. I have always been team Joyce when she blames Giles in 'Anne'.
But the argument for keeping it a secret is that if people know Buffy is the slayer that endangers them ... and Buffy wants to keep her mother safe. But if someone else in the house - a little girl - knew and still it was decided that fair enough Dawn knows but Joyce still needs to be 'protected' ... just no.

Oh no, she only gave Buffy life, she only houses and her provides for her, she only works all hours as a single mother to keep them in a nice home ... but she can't expect to know what's going on in her daughter's life. She can't expect her daughters to not be actively involved in a plan to keep her in the dark while the older one burns down buildings and risks her life every night. She can't expect to be treated with just basic respect. Woah there Joyce, don't go asking for too much - what do you think you are? A human with rights? Don't be silly - you're just a mum.
 
Priceless
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Couldn't agree more
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But the argument for keeping it a secret is that if people know Buffy is the slayer that endangers them ... and Buffy wants to keep her mother safe.
I also thought that Buffy kept her identity a secret from her mother in order to keep her safe.
But as for Giles (and the Watcher's Counsil), I always thought there was a more sinister reason he insisted on keeping this from her. The way I read it, he wanted to keep this information from Joyce because he didn't want her to be able to make decisions that would impact his control over his slayer. It turns out that Joyce is pretty passive about her daughter's dark destiny but for all he knew she could have reacted quite differently and taken her daughter to Mexico or sent her away to a boarding school or whatever, that would have prevented Giles from controlling Buffy's slayer activities.
 
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Also... more on point with this thread... I would picture Dawn getting in trouble fairy frequently and Buffy having to save her "every Tuesday". She is irresponsible and annoying as a teen, I don't know why she would be any different as a child.
I could see her sneaking out after Buffy at night and then Buffy having to walk her back home and things like that... also I would picture Buffy having to be home to babysit Dawn when Joyce would work late or be out and so spending much less time at the Bronze with her friends...
 

thrasherpix

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Today I got that comic. It was an okay story, and would be willing to exchange an episode somewhere along the way for its inclusion, but at the same time, it wasn't anything great, IMO. (Also, the description on the back of it is strongly misleading.)

Some who don't hate Dawn might after they see what she says to Buffy in one scene. And it sure adds to the mystery of why Buffy won't kill Harmony (I'd say because Harmony makes her laugh, but if she's so worried about her sister...). Again, it was okay, but nothing special.

The false memories are incidental, and just shown in flashback forms. It would appear she found out about Buffy when she followed Buffy when she went to face the Master (who completely ignored Dawn even when Dawn screamed a warning to Buffy, and it was Dawn to say use CPR), did not handle Xandelia (Candor) well at all, was the first choice of Angelus to go after. I was hoping to see why she hated Faith so much, but Faith isn't shown at all, and I don't remember her being mentioned.

'Course it's irrelevant since the flashbacks never actually happened, similar to how Jonathan didn't really do all those things in Superstar. That's why I can overlook the Master ignoring Dawn, etc. I could headcanon it to say that the monks added in memories of a mental hospital, both to keep Dawn (who typically sticks with Buffy) away from those who can see her as the Key (as it might remind Buffy of what happened) but that Dawn didn't want the same thing to happen to her...or to Buffy again.

Amazingly, Joyce did not show up at all, I don't think even in flashback, though she's mentioned as being in the hospital. But I did like that Dawn has Mr. Gordo now.
 
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thrasherpix

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I just remembered, in Angel, Angelus talks to Dawn to ask if Buffy was home (to figure out which Slayer was after him). That implies his memories were warped as well.

So now I'll have to headcanon that there was an "Angelus-exception clause" in the spell that erased memories of the Beast as part of Jasmine's diabolical plan. Because why would Angelus (as opposed to Angel) be immune to that spell, but not the one about Dawn?
 

Miss Muffet

"Can I trade in the children for more cash?"
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I just remembered, in Angel, Angelus talks to Dawn to ask if Buffy was home (to figure out which Slayer was after him). That implies his memories were warped as well.

So now I'll have to headcanon that there was an "Angelus-exception clause" in the spell that erased memories of the Beast as part of Jasmine's diabolical plan. Because why would Angelus (as opposed to Angel) be immune to that spell, but not the one about Dawn?
Well, wouldn't Angel have seen Dawn over the summer Buffy was dead? And it's canon that Buffy at the very least mentioned her in 'Forever', so it's not that hard for me to believe Angelus knew a girl named Dawn was Buffy's sister.
 
T
thrasherpix
Angelus knew of the Beast, but Angel did not. They have different memory tracks. Even if Angelus knew of Dawn through Angel, he'd have to know something was weird (but not care)

TriBel

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So now I'll have to headcanon that there was an "Angelus-exception clause" in the spell that erased memories of the Beast as part of Jasmine's diabolical plan. Because why would Angelus (as opposed to Angel) be immune to that spell, but not the one about Dawn?
Because it's a different spell? In the same way that someone might be allergic to peaches or strawberries but not apples or bananas. They're all types of fruit but different fruit. Aren't there 4/5 "memory spells" in the Buffyverse, all cast by different people and all having different effects?
 
T
thrasherpix
Yes, but that could still include an Angelus exception clause tailored in. Especially given the time travel aspects introduced in Angel.

AlphaFoxtrot

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No, because Angelus's mind was outside of this dimension when all memory of the Beast was wiped by ... unknown party. Don’t you remember, Angelus isn’t merely the absence of good, he’s an demonic entity who gets tagged out to the Shadow Realm every time Angel shows up. Unless he’s an alternate personality hiding inside of Angel. Whatever, point is, it’s not a mind spell, it’s not being around for one.
 

thrasherpix

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@thrasherpix Spike wasn't affected by the Ben is Glory spell but he was by the Dawn spell so it's definitely possible that Angel and Angelus were affected too.
While I have yet to begin my rewatch of Angel, I believe there was an explanation (at least a guess) that Angelus recalled the Beast when Angel didn't because "Angelus wasn't here when the spell was cast, Angel was" (or words to that effect).

That is to say if Angelus were present when the spell was cast, then he'd be affected. It's not that he's a vampire that would make him immune to memory spells, it was that Angelus wasn't fully present when the spell was cast. He was in some shadow realm while Angel was present, so Angel was hit with it, but Angelus was not.

Therefore, Spike falling for the Dawn memory spell is irrelevant, because Spike was around to be affected. And so was Angel. But not Angelus. The same way Angelus didn't have his memories of the Beast erased as Angel did, because Angelus was not present as Angel was when the spell was cast.
 
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