• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

I don't get Cangel

Gnomie192

Townie
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
26
Age
39
Location
UK
Hi Guys,

Hoping you could explain "Cangel" to me as I just don't understand it. I think Angel and Cordelia are brilliant as friends and have a fantastic platonic chemistry, I just don't see a romantic spark between them. I see it as the same as Buffy and Xander. In fact I saw more of as spark between Cordelia and Connor. Admittedly I am a huge Bangel fan and have been since the show first aired 20 years ago, but I can see the spark between Spike and Buffy and why "Spuffy" is so popular. (Also Spike is my favourite character so that helps lol. I'm not anti-Cordelia. In fact she is one of my favourite characters).

Can you point out what i am missing?
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,018
Black Thorn
I think the idea with Cangel was that they were close friends whose relationship evolved into love. It was a pretty natural progression, not particularly romantic.
Exactly. That's all it was; tons of people that work together end up in a relationship.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I think it was more than that though. They were close friends. Not just co-workers.

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
7,391
Location
UK
It wasn't romantic, I think that's the thing. It was about two people who became best friends, who relied on each other, who were each other's comfort. They bought out something in each other than no one else could. They spoke together as equals and trusted each other. I'm a Cangel fan, and I wish we'd seen their relationship become romantic, but what we got was two people who loved each other, so fanfic has to bring the romance 😀
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,463
Age
30
Cangel makes no sense when you factor in all the Sunnydale events. Cordy knows Angel loves Buffy and she knows about Angel's curse and Angelus. She experienced those events first hand in Sunnydale. Yet over on Angel she seems happy playing second best and doesn't seem bothered about Angelus potentially being let loose.

Another thing is that Angelus becomes a marker in the relationship. Buffy gave Angel a moment of perfect happiness. Therefore Cordy either has to accept that Angel's ex gave him perfect happiness whilst she doesn't, or she's happy to run the risk of Angelus being unleashed, neither particularly paints Cordy in a good light. Her sleeping with Connor basically killed Cangel dead in the water.
 
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
I kind of agree with this. I don't think Cordy would be with Angel romantically/sexually.

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
1,579
Age
39
It was extremely difficult to write Angel without a love interest for the leading man? Frankly, if it was my story, I would have put Wes and Cordy on the Marriage track. It would be an Adult action, since Buffy should have stayed a million miles from weddings, it would highlight Angel's isolation from humanity, and it would force Mutant Enemy to write a healthy relationship for a change.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Wes and Cordy had about as much chemistry as two rocks.

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,463
Age
30
Seems like many people's idea of a normal relationship. It's not some idealized fairytale, it's more or less, accurate and real.
I disagree. No woman wants to play second best to her boyfriend's ex.

If Angelus didn't exist then your general point that Cordy's relationship with Angel is different from Buffy but on equal footing would be correct, unfortunately Angelus is a distinct marker in all of Angel's relationships. The audience knows this and Cordy knows this. If the Season 2 Angelus events had never happened or if Cordy hadn't been in Sunnydale, then a case could be made for the development of Cangel. However, it's Cordy's knowledge of Angelus and Buffy which is the sticking point here.

Cordy knows Angel loves Buffy, she knows perfect happiness brings Angelus out to play and she knows that Buffy gave that to Angel. Either she has to accept that she will never give Angel the perfect happiness that Buffy gave him, or she knowingly runs the risk of unleashing Angelus. It's essentially a lose/lose situation for Cordelia.
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,018
Black Thorn
I disagree. No woman wants to play second best to her boyfriend's ex.
Yet many do. Both men and women. Where do you think the phrase "the one that got away" came from? It seems nothing more than a fantasy that your first or best love will be the bestest ever and nothing will ever come between you, and the person that thinks you are the bestest ever, and you'll never part or die.

If the people that found their best love and lost them were resigned to never love again the world would be a far darker place to live.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,463
Age
30
Yet many do. Both men and women. Where do you think the phrase "the one that got away" came from? It seems nothing more than a fantasy that your first or best love will be the bestest ever and nothing will ever come between you, and the person that thinks you are the bestest ever, and you'll never part or die.

If the people that found their best love and lost them were resigned to never love again the world would be a far darker place to live.
What I mean is that Cordelia knows too much about Angel's past relationship and the circumstances surrounding it's ending and yet is either willing to risk running that gauntlet or having to settle.

I don't thing Bangel/Cangel can really be compared to real world relationships as men don't tend to have an evil twin version of themselves which is brought out by a moment of perfect happiness. If Cordelia was never in Sunnydale, then Cangel wouldn't have such issues as Cordelia wouldn't have the knowledge to know what was at stake (pun not intended). However, all the reasons why Bangel can't be together aka the curse and the risk of Angelus being unleashed, are just thrown by the wayside even though Cordy and Angel should know better.
 

Joan the Vampire Slayer

Carpe Spuffy!
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
5,620
Age
35
Location
WA State
Cangel makes no sense when you factor in all the Sunnydale events. Cordy knows Angel loves Buffy and she knows about Angel's curse and Angelus. She experienced those events first hand in Sunnydale. Yet over on Angel she seems happy playing second best and doesn't seem bothered about Angelus potentially being let loose.
Sure, Cordelia knows that Angel loved/loves Buffy, but she also knows that Buffy and Angel can't be together no matter how much they want to. So Cordelia figures she'll give it a shot with Angel.

Just because you can't make it work with someone one you once loved doesn't mean you give up on finding love in the future.

I don't know if I agree that Cordelia thought of herself as "second best." I'm sure she thought of her and Angel's relationship as entirely separate from his relationship with Buffy, as she should. Angel is capable of loving Buffy and also Cordelia as well.

In the beginning, Cordelia thought that it was sex that made Angel turn into Angelus, but i'm sure he fills her in later on the truth. He needs to experience a moment of true happiness, but that could happen as a result of anything, not necessarily though sex. These two are not mutually exclusive. That moment of happiness happened to be sex with Buffy, but there is no indication that would happen with Cordelia, and she knows that. After all, Angel had sex with Nina with no issue.

Another thing is that Angelus becomes a marker in the relationship. Buffy gave Angel a moment of perfect happiness. Therefore Cordy either has to accept that Angel's ex gave him perfect happiness whilst she doesn't, or she's happy to run the risk of Angelus being unleashed, neither particularly paints Cordy in a good light. Her sleeping with Connor basically killed Cangel dead in the water.
Again, like I said above, I really don't think that Cordelia thinks she can five Angel a moment of true happiness. And that's okay.

Remember that Cordelia wasn't in her right head when she slept with Conner. She was under the influence of Jasmine.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,463
Age
30
Sure, Cordelia knows that Angel loved/loves Buffy, but she also knows that Buffy and Angel can't be together no matter how much they want to. So Cordelia figures she'll give it a shot with Angel.
But that's the thing, Buffy and Angel do want to be together, it's his curse and the risk of Angelus which stops them. That's an unresolved issue because they've not really moved on. IWRY is evidence that Buffy and Angel would be all over each other like a shot if the curse was no longer an issue. Buffy and Angel might try and move on from each other but even in Season 7, they kiss each other and Buffy gives her cookie dough speech (implying Angel would be said receiver of cookie Buffy) so they're feelings for each other are very strong.


Cordelia always hovered around Angel in Sunnydale pre-Angelus then she kind of stopped after the Angelus drama. The problem with Cangel for me is that it seems like either Cordelia was always waiting for a shot with Angel and just needed Buffy out of the way or she either forgets about or wilfully ignores the threat of Angelus. I just don't think the Cordelia we met in Sunnydale would settle for a relationship with a guy who is clearly still hung up on his ex.

Just because you can't make it work with someone one you once loved doesn't mean you give up on finding love in the future.
Whilst I'd agree this was true in general, I think Bangel is kind of an exception. Buffy and Angel didn't break up because they couldn't make it work, they broke up because they couldn't run the risk of being together. If Angelus wasn't an issue, then they would be together like a shot. All the reasons Angel gave for why he couldn't be together with Buffy, are still present in his relationship with Cordelia. This is what I mean when I say Angelus becomes a marker in the relationship and why Cordelia's Sunnydale knowledge is an issue. Cordelia knows what happens if Angel gets too happy so either she's accepting that she's never going to make Angel feel like Buffy made him feel or she's wilfully ignoring the risk of Angelus.

In my opinion, it kind of feels like Cordelia is selling herself short and is settling for a relationship where the guys heart isn't fully in it because a part of him is still pining for his ex.

I don't know if I agree that Cordelia thought of herself as "second best." I'm sure she thought of her and Angel's relationship as entirely separate from his relationship with Buffy, as she should. Angel is capable of loving Buffy and also Cordelia as well.
Again the problem is Cordelia's Sunnydale history. She knows too much about Buffy and the Bangel relationship. If Cordelia had been a brand new Angel character with very little knowledge about Buffy and Angelus eg she knows of Buffy and what happened to unleash Angelus but that's it, then that's slightly different because essentially Buffy and Bangel would be an abstract concept, it exists but it means nothing to Cordelia. However given her Sunnydale history, Cordelia was right in the thick of the Bangel drama alongside the other scoobies and witnessed Angelus first hand.

In the beginning, Cordelia thought that it was sex that made Angel turn into Angelus, but i'm sure he fills her in later on the truth. He needs to experience a moment of true happiness, but that could happen as a result of anything, not necessarily though sex. These two are not mutually exclusive. That moment of happiness happened to be sex with Buffy, but there is no indication that would happen with Cordelia, and she knows that. After all, Angel had sex with Nina with no issue.
Angel and Nina were very open that their relationship was more of a casual one rather than an emotionally meaningful one so I think it's a bit apple and oranges trying to compare the two.

Again, like I said above, I really don't think that Cordelia thinks she can five Angel a moment of true happiness.
That's what I mean about Cordelia being second best, she's accepting that she'll never make Angel as happy as his ex did and that seems kind of out of character for Cordy in my view. Cordelia always wanted to be number 1, her self respect wouldn't get her into a love triangle because as far as she's concerned, it's her or nothing, yet here Cordy is settling for a guy who still has feelings for his ex and who would be with his ex in a shot if it didn't unleash Angelus.

Perhaps Cordelia's acceptance is actually a sign of how low her self-esteem had fallen. It seemed like she was on the verge of prostituting herself if it got her acting roles (eg when she asked that guy what he wanted her to do in exchange for an acting role) and Angel saved her from that so she's certainly appreciative of him as a person but he doesn't love her especially not on the same emotional level as he loved Buffy.

Remember that Cordelia wasn't in her right head when she slept with Conner. She was under the influence of Jasmine.
It still kind of kills it though on account of the familial connection between Angel and Connor and that Cordelia had essentially been a mother to baby Connor.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
174
Age
62
The issue with Cangel is that inspite of them trying to showcase it as a natural progression it actually is extremely forced and contrived. They have to make up a stupid word ‘kyrumption’ and repeat it and have the two main characters who know them the least to be their cheerleaders in Lorne and Fred. They don’t even start with oh maybe you guys have feelings for each other, it’s straight into ‘you guys are so in love because kyrumption!’. Lorne and Fred are basically there to tell US the audience that they are supposedly in love, because it’s just not there onscreen for us to actually see it

season 3 Becomes ridiculous games and childish behaviour (particularly from Angel) between them which always makes me eyebrow raise at the ‘oh it’s a grown up relationship’ Tag when even Bangel who constantly get the ‘puppy love’ tag thrown at them actually talk their problems through with each other and communicate

Cangel literally only works if Bangel didn’t exist because the exact same issues arise. Cordy from s3 in Buffy (she’s the only character that doesn’t accept Buffy’s explanation at the end of Revelations and makes it clear she doesn’t trust Buffy with regards to Angel) all the way through Angel has always been consistently the character most worried about Angel reverting to Angelus, there is multiple occasions of her voicing this concern. There is absolutely no way she risks it, even if she knows it’s not just down to sex there is just no way Cordy would risk it because she knows what happens

The Mayors speech is still very valid with regards to Cangel as it was with Bangel. Neither Cordy or Buffy can have normal lives but both still very much enjoy some normal aspects of life, both still enjoy being young women and the things that come with that.Cangels tends to love that scene at the end of Provider but that scene actually illustrates why that issue is still there, yes they joke about moonlight cruises but it’s still showing Cordy wanting holidays etc (heck we even see Cordy excited to go on holiday this same season) while Angel is still skulking in the shadows. Angel makes it clear in The Prom and IWRY that he’s letting Buffy go BECAUSE he loves and cares for her so much. Are we to now believe that Angel just doesn’t care enough about
Cordy because he’s going to keep her away from the things it’s established she still enjoys?

Honestly they have to make both characters lesser than what they are to try and make them appear compatible. They have to remove most things that make Cordy Cordy and Angel they have to turn into a complete goofball

In summary to cut a long story short Cangel is complete bollocks
 

AstridDante

Potential
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
190
Age
41
Ugh Cangel kills me, I want to love it I really do. In a lot of ways I think they were perfect for each other but I felt there wasn’t the romantic chemistry between the actors to sell it. Unlike Spike and Buffy the actors had that chemistry so sold it without even trying
 

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
7,391
Location
UK
Ugh Cangel kills me, I want to love it I really do. In a lot of ways I think they were perfect for each other but I felt there wasn’t the romantic chemistry between the actors to sell it. Unlike Spike and Buffy the actors had that chemistry so sold it without even trying
Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. I agree Spike and Buffy had amazing chemistry, but I lot of people look at them and don't see it at all. I think Angel and Cordy had great chemistry, especially evident whenever Angel laughed when he was with her . It felt like the only time he showed any outward sign of happiness.
 

AstridDante

Potential
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
190
Age
41
Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. I agree Spike and Buffy had amazing chemistry, but I lot of people look at them and don't see it at all. I think Angel and Cordy had great chemistry, especially evident whenever Angel laughed when he was with her . It felt like the only time he showed any outward sign of happiness.
[/QUOTE
Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. I agree Spike and Buffy had amazing chemistry, but I lot of people look at them and don't see it at all. I think Angel and Cordy had great chemistry, especially evident whenever Angel laughed when he was with her . It felt like the only time he showed any outward sign of happiness.
I think most even the Spuffy detractors could see the chemistry between the actors. However yes speaking subjectively the actors for Cangel did not sell the romantic/sexual chemistry to me. Friendship yes
 

Fuffy Baith

2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
Joined
Mar 14, 2014
Messages
4,118
Age
32
Location
CA
Sineya
To me Cangel came out of nowhere, in season 3. It was established in Buffy season 1 and early season 2 that Cordy was attracted to Angel, and there's a few moments on Angel early on that suggests he finds Cordy physically attractive. But seasons 1 and 2 of Angel sort of establish that Angel and Cordy are more like family and good friends helping the helpless. I never found it logically for them to develop romantic feelings. It's not because I'm a Bangel shipper, it's cause I just don't think these two characters would fall for each other.
 

Myheadsgonenumb

Potential
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
348
Age
35
Location
England
I think Fade90 got everything spot on. There is so much more than Angelus wrong with CAngel - and the possibility of Angelus was only one of many reasons Angel left Buffy. Cordelia, like Buffy, is still mortal - and Angel is not, meaning there is no chance of them 'growing old together'. Only one of them will grow old. It's going to get to a point where the relationship is ... awkward at best. Cordelia will want to go on holiday or have a picnic in the park, go to restaurants, do normal coupley stuff, and she can't with a vampire boyfriend. He will be stopping her from having a proper life and will be being selfish in doing so. Add in the danger of Angelus and how Cordelia, of all people, is always most worried about him returning plus the fact that Angel is pretty cheap and Cordelia likes to spend ... and this relationship is going nowhere.

I also think there's more to the Angelus aspect than 'uh oh we might unleash Angelus'. Yes, they can be careful, yes they can understand that it isn't actually sex with Buffy that triggered it - it was perfect happiness which could, in theory, happen any time anywhere but won't simply because Angel will never allow it to happen... but keeping that in mind - for Cordelia specifically - would require being quite clinical and scientific and detached about the whole thing (none of which are great romance words). In reality, it would eat away at her - how could it not? Every time they slept together and he didn't lose his soul it would be a little reminder that he didn't love her as much as he had loved Buffy. And no - it might not really mean that - but emotions, particularly such strong ones, are neither rational nor sensible. It would be a cause of jealousy and heartache, even if she was loved very much. Every day she would feel second best to Buffy (until the day she wasn't - and then he would kill her and everyone she cared about) even if she wasn't and that would eat away at her, it would destroy their relationship drip by drip. And that's if she even let it last that long because, let's face it, Cordy is not the kind of girl to walk around feeling like second best.

There is just no way this relationship could ever work.

Which isn't to say I specifically dislike the concept of CAngel; people fall in love with people they shouldn't do all the time so it's not that I think it's unrealistic they might fall in love with each other or that they might try to be together, because people do things that aren't sensible all the time as well ... but they can clearly never be endgame for all the reasons above. There's no marriage and babies and until death do us part here. It would definitely end and it might end badly, which would ruin everything they had had as friends. So I can't understand people for whom CAngel is OTP, because it is a terrible idea from start to finish. I can excuse Cordelia and Angel getting wrapped up in the emotion and throwing all caution and good sense to the wind (not that they ever do - it's a total non-starter) but I can't understand people thinking this is a good idea or wanting it to happen - beyond out of morbid curiosity or wanting to watch the tragic fall out.

I also never really understand where the substance worth shipping actually is in the execution (because it is executed terribly). Angel (and the audience) is informed he likes her in 'Offspring' but up until then ... there hasn't been anything to suggest it. Maybe one or two moments in hindsight (the bit where she announces she loves the Groosalug and he says 'but you love me too as a friend and coworker?...maybe love is too strong a word' ... I guess ) but it really does come - wham - out of the blue and doesn't even come from Angel himself. Cordelia doesn't know about it until 'Tomorrow' (where she is told by somebody else) and she effectively dies in that episode. The fact is - for all waiting in the wings is hot and heavy - she is written to be completely unmoved by the whole experience. So I'm a bit of a loss as to whether the shippers just ship the potential of the couple, or if they actually enjoy this walking disaster zone we get on the screen.

I also think people pull stuff from earlier seasons to support the ship, but it's not really evidence and it wasn't written as such and it requires an extreme (and often wilfully inaccurate) interpretation of the text. (And if you're leaning on Cordelia pre Halloween being into Angel then you are reaching - she's 16 and doesn't know he's a vampire, she shows no interest in him after that point. Angel was a hot boy she had a crush on, she didn't actually know anything about him and she got over him when she found out he wasn't what she thought.) I've had a CAngel shipper tell me there is evidence of CAngel in 'Eternity' because Cordelia looks sad when Wes explains to her how Angel can't find perfect happiness with just anyone and he won't find it with an actress ... that is not what is written and performed, it's an interpretation as viewed through extreme shipping goggles. I think people look for whatever evidence they can find because they like the friends to lovers trope, in general, and so are applying it to Cordy and Angel, rather than because their relationship has any merit as a romantic one in and of itself. If you like friends to lovers well - Cordy and Angel are friends, of course you would want to see them as lovers ... that much makes sense. It doesn't fit with what's on the screen, but it makes sense.

Unfortunately, Cordy and Angel ARE a hot mess as lovers. Both in execution and potential. If there was actually any mileage to the relationship, the writers would have put them together- even briefly. The fact that it's all missed opportunities and misunderstandings and hastily invented love triangles shows they just aren't capable of being believable lovers and a relationship would go nowhere, ultimately ending in a poor man's rehash of BAngel.
 
Top Bottom