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Would Spike have stopped AR or was it only Buffy?

darkspook

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This is a difficult topic but I would be curious for different people's views on the subject. It divides fans both as a scene and the affect on the characters. I for one never really enjoyed Spike as much as I previously did in S7 as I believe he is tainted by this scene but anyway I was discussing the topic on another thread with another member and we disagreed on the answer so I would like to open it up to other members. So question to all... did Spike have stopped AR or was it Buffy stopping him?

I think we can all agree both non Spuffy fans and Spuffy fans that Spike did not go to there rape Buffy. No part of me believes that, he went there to talk to her, to implore her to give them another chance etc. He comes onto Buffy who is on a weaken state. He doesn't see it as rape or sexual assault but rather restarting their fire that they share or connection which I think we can all agree sex is a big part of. However she says no and struggles to get him off and he does not stop. She struggles more and eventually pushes him off her. Now here is the big question do we think that Spike would have stopped or would he had continued?

I think it is fair to say he was caught up in the moment and wanted to prove his love for Buffy via any means. He is shocked at his actions when he comes to his senses but only after he is on the other side of the room after she pushed him away. In the heat of the moment he was not stopping or at least that what it seems to me. He only regains his control and realises what he has done after she has pushed him away I would argue. But then say I think that he would have stopped... why didn't the writers simply have him stop? Simply have him recoil in disgust at himself jumping away from Buffy. It could have further highlighted his struggle (man vs monster) and sent a clear message that Spike would not have fully gone through with his actions. As it is now I feel it is ambiguous hence the thread. Buffy being the one who stops him leaves the view that Spike would have stopped very much open for interpretation. It wasn't on screen so how do we know for sure? He love her but didn't have a soul at the time so would he have stopped himself?

Very much interested to hear one's views on this difficult and topic.
 

DeadlyDuo

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He love her but didn't have a soul at the time so would he have stopped himself?
I think there is also the question of at what point would he stop? After he entered her but before anything else? After he'd "finished"?

Once he's crossed the line (aka entered Buffy), it doesn't matter when he stops because he would've already gone too far. There would be no coming back from that as he would've crossed "the moral event horizon". As the scene stands, he already comes dangerously close to doing that (and given that the writers were relying on the audience having sympathy for Spike in Season 7, it's an odd scene to choose given the risk of turning the audience off of Spike due to the "rape is a special kind of evil" trope).

I thin Spike would've stopped himself eventually, when he saw that Buffy wasn't enjoying it and he was hurting her, but I don't think he would've stopped himself in time before it turned into actual rape and not just attempted.
 
V
VampireSlayer07
Totally agree here. There comes a point that the damage would have been done even if he stopped himself and entering would have been that point I believe.

thrasherpix

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I agree with all the above.

I don't think Spike was able to understand. Their sex had almost always had brutal and violent aspects to it. And though he babied Dru somewhat, he was even willing to find her to torture her to take him back, and saw that as a manifestation of love.

One good thing I can say about that scene is that I believe the character was truly surprised to the point of being stunned with disbelief when Buffy stopped him as he realized this time she was serious.


That said...while just my interpretation, I don't think Spike would've gone in the first place had Buffy not been so obviously distraught over him having a one night stand with Anya. He was actually trying to move on. Good for him, he wasn't assuming Buffy was playing hard to get. But then Buffy is all upset and so is everyone else that I can see how a soulless demon would misunderstand what happened and react as he did with the best of intentions (for a demon) with it snowballing from there.
 

Dora

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Why do people think that Spike did not rape Buffy , sure he had his pants on so no penis rape , but the top of Buffy thighs were badly bruised from being prised apart , so a possibility that he forced his fingers into her , go back to the famous balcony scene , buffy said don't he said stop me and carried on , no permission given , if you do not get permission surely that is rape
The main difference between Balcony and Bathroom is that Buffy stopped him
Buffy crying ,begging , how could Spike think she wanted sex , especially after she broke up with him , no he was going to force her there is no doubt ,
Ending up in the sink it dawned on him that Buffy was mentally stronger , remember Buffy said because I stopped you something I should have done long ago , the look on Spikes face was him realising it was actually over with Buffy that she could no longer be manipulated by him and a great possibility he would not get into Buffy's pants again
 

DeadlyDuo

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@Dora His hands were nowhere near her privates in the bathroom scene and the balcony scene was not rape. Buffy literally made no effort to stop him, she didn't even move her arms off the railing. It was no different than an addict saying "I shouldn't do this" as they stick a needle in their arm. Actions speak louder than words and Buffy has a habit of saying one thing then doing the complete opposite.

We all know you hate Spike (and by extension JM for playing him) but at least blame Spike for stuff he's actually guilty of and not stuff that he didn't do but you want to make Buffy a victim of because then it gives you an excuse to hate him more and treat her like she can do no wrong.

Buffy CHOSE to engage in Spuffy. She CHOSE to give Spike a blowjob in Gone. Buffy had agency in Spuffy and was capable of making choices. If you want to portray her as incapable and that it was all big bad Spike's fault, then by extension she was incapable of looking after Dawn due to her inability to make her own decisions.
 

Athene

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I think Spike would have penetrated Buffy and you know maybe gone for a bit but he would have stopped once he realised Buffy wasn’t responding positively- he was convinced that when they had sex she felt love for him which is why he attacked her and didn’t stop when she cried, because he thought that she’d change her mind once he started having sex with her.
 

darkspook

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From what we saw it doesn’t seem to me that he would have stopped. As Buffy said he didn’t do it because ‘she stopped him’. He was too far gone in his desperation to reach her in my view. Very sad scene all round
Yeah there is a desperation to his actions. He is clinging onto the belief that Buffy will come back to him which in fairness she would do in season 7.
 

AstridDante

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Yeah there is a desperation to his actions. He is clinging onto the belief that Buffy will come back to him which in fairness she would do in season 7.
@Dora His hands were nowhere near her privates in the bathroom scene and the balcony scene was not rape. Buffy literally made no effort to stop him, she didn't even move her arms off the railing. It was no different than an addict saying "I shouldn't do this" as they stick a needle in their arm. Actions speak louder than words and Buffy has a habit of saying one thing then doing the complete opposite.

We all know you hate Spike (and by extension JM for playing him) but at least blame Spike for stuff he's actually guilty of and not stuff that he didn't do but you want to make Buffy a victim of because then it gives you an excuse to hate him more and treat her like she can do no wrong.

Buffy CHOSE to engage in Spuffy. She CHOSE to give Spike a blowjob in Gone. Buffy had agency in Spuffy and was capable of making choices. If you want to portray her as incapable and that it was all big bad Spike's fault, then by extension she was incapable of looking after Dawn due to her inability to make her own decisions.
I agree with almost everything you say but I think the Balcony scene, even though ever so hot and seductive, is problematic. Spike is manipulating her weakness there
 

darkspook

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I agree with almost everything you say but I think the Balcony scene, even though ever so hot and seductive, is problematic. Spike is manipulating her weakness there
I agree there is a case of manipulation from Spike onto Buffy. He is pushing her buttons, the wording on his dialogue "you try to be with them...but you always end up in the dark...with me." "No ... don't close your eyes... Look at them." it's hardly the most loving romantic dialogue that has ever come out of Spike's mouth. He isn't the cause of alot of Buffy's problems but I don't think he is the cure to any of them.
 

darkspook

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I think there is also the question of at what point would he stop? After he entered her but before anything else? After he'd "finished"?

Once he's crossed the line (aka entered Buffy), it doesn't matter when he stops because he would've already gone too far. There would be no coming back from that as he would've crossed "the moral event horizon". As the scene stands, he already comes dangerously close to doing that (and given that the writers were relying on the audience having sympathy for Spike in Season 7, it's an odd scene to choose given the risk of turning the audience off of Spike due to the "rape is a special kind of evil" trope).

I thin Spike would've stopped himself eventually, when he saw that Buffy wasn't enjoying it and he was hurting her, but I don't think he would've stopped himself in time before it turned into actual rape and not just attempted.
I think that is a fair analysis and you do raise an important point about when he would have stopped. I guess as you say when he he had entered her and realised she wasn't enjoying it. Seeing her in pleasure was definitely a turn on for Spike, he delighted in seeing how much he could get away with or push her into doing (handcuffs for example).

I totally agree that if he had crossed that line as in entering her he would have been done for as a character. As it is now I still think it is problematic and controversial having him not stop himself as it is very ambigous if he would have stopped himself before he entered her. The other member I was debating this with on a previous thread was adamant and unshakeable (to the point we started exchanging some choice words) in their belief that Spike would have but the evidence is there that it was Buffy who stopped him not Spike. The writers could have written Spike stopping but didn't. Also I would argue that by not stopping it backs up his reason for getting a soul as Spike knows that he wouldn't have stopped under the circumstances.
 

NothingVentured

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I think that is a fair analysis and you do raise an important point about when he would have stopped. I guess as you say when he he had entered her and realised she wasn't enjoying it. Seeing her in pleasure was definitely a turn on for Spike, he delighted in seeing how much he could get away with or push her into doing (handcuffs for example).

I totally agree that if he had crossed that line as in entering her he would have been done for as a character. As it is now I still think it is problematic and controversial having him not stop himself as it is very ambigous if he would have stopped himself before he entered her. The other member I was debating this with on a previous thread was adamant and unshakeable (to the point we started exchanging some choice words) in their belief that Spike would have but the evidence is there that it was Buffy who stopped him not Spike. The writers could have written Spike stopping but didn't. Also I would argue that by not stopping it backs up his reason for getting a soul as Spike knows that he wouldn't have stopped under the circumstances.
A lot of people can't wrap their brain around the idea that Spike isn't the main character of the show. He would not have stopped until she stopped him, a point made very evident in the scene itself. He would not have noticed or cared at her distress because he didn't care before and didn't notice her vehemence at all.
 

Antho

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Spike is manipulating her weakness there
Thanks you. I think you allow me to understand why I have always felt uncomfortable watching this balcony scene.

I remember that a year ago on a YouTube video I had written that I disliked that scene because I feel uncomfortable watching it. People responded to me that I was a kid with an innocent soul who was shocked by two people having “hard sex”. I didn’t respond to them as I didn’t want to start a debate and I thought this argument was very “shallow”. Back in that time I watched a show called Nip tuck where there was plenty of sex scene more shocking than what there is on Buffy 😂. Also I was 25 years old.. 😅.

i don’t know how to describe is but as hot, seductive that scene is... there is an atmosphere around that makes the scene almost unwatchable for me.
 

r2dh2

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I agree with almost everything you say but I think the Balcony scene, even though ever so hot and seductive, is problematic. Spike is manipulating her weakness there
I can see why some people would feel this way, but personally I never had a problem with the specific scene. For me, it was part of the overall mood in S6, where Buffy is deeply depressed. And honestly, I never felt that she was enjoying herself while they were sleeping together. She seemed happier in other scenes with him before their sexual relationship started or after it ended (pre-AR or in S7).
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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My belief is, Vampires are subject to “feeding frenzy” where their demon instincts
take control, and whatever taint of humanity remains is fully submerged. I think this is happened to Angel in Graduation Day.
 

thetopher

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No.

Even afterwards, after Buffy stopped him, Spike is still asking himself 'why didn't I do it?' which shows his reasoning; sex and violence are interlinked for him, always have been.
The whole thing also sort-of undermines the argument that he was driven to get a soul because of feelings of self-loathing.
 
V
VampireSlayer07
I know that is what Whedon says so I guess it must be canon but I will say I have never seen it at such.

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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Very much interested to hear one's views on this difficult and topic.
I think it was a combination of both him and Buffy. He seemed to sort of "snap out of it" and also she did find the strength to push him away. The later is interesting to me because it can be argued they are are equal strength, and she was injured and thus not at her usual level of strength.
 

TriBel

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In answer to the original post, IDK...I don't think we're meant to know. As @Joan the Vampire Slayer points out, Buffy's not at full strength and yet she stops him, which kinda suggests he's not completely lost control. The ambivalence/inconclusiveness of this scene feeds into his later conversation with Clem.

SPIKE: (shakily) What have I done? Beat. Spike frowns, looks bemused. SPIKE: Why *didn't* I do it? He's puzzled...Clem's confused. Another question "What has she done to me?" (which could be objective but could equally be displacement). He even refers to a general lack of clarity in their S6 relationship: You know, everything used to be so clear. Then: It won't let me be a monster. (quietly) And I can't be a man. I'm nothing.
Unlike the tiles in the bathroom, not everything is black and white. Neither man nor monster - Man / Monster. He's occupying the indeterminate space of the virgule (or slash or solidus). He doesn't know...hence we don't know.
 
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