2 vampires with a soul - A mistake?

[MarieVampSlayer]

Hi all,

Ok so I will try to be as neutral as I can about this sudject because I really want your inpun on this.

So at the end of S6, the writers decided to give Spike a soul. Personaly, I think it was a mistake on a writing point of view (not character). Here are my reasons why and my questions to you BB members:

1) The fact that 2 vampires now have souls cheapen Angel arc as he is not different from all his pairs anymore. It also makes his arc with the Shanshu almost useless as it is speculated that it could be about another vampire.

2) It creates problematics with the explanation of the soul as Souled Angel/Angelus is a dual personality and Soul Spike/Spike is not.

3) It makes the soul aspect of Angel laughable and almost not a curse anymore as Spike seems to be rapidly fine with it.

4) It created a unnecessary love triangle between Angel, Spike and Buffy.

Do you agree or disagree with any of this? Do you think that having 2 souled vampires was a good idea?

Let's discuss!

 

[badsister]

The fact that 2 vampires now have souls cheapen Angel arc as he is not different from all his pairs anymore. It also makes his arc with the Shanshu almost useless as it is speculated that it could be about another vampire.

No it doesn't. Just a big no. And the prophecy always was about him, because hello he's the Champion. And they're so completely different that I don't see how Spike's story can violate Angel's. No way. Angel chose his destiny, what to do with his soul, chose to fight, how can you cheapen this by mere act of stupidity on Spike's part(cause I bet he had no idea what he was doing when he went to get a soul and that is still debatable whether he wanted it even, but I think yes he did and it came back to bite him in the ass lmao)
I need @Mrs Gordo here on this one. She knows the drill

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

No it doesn't. Just a big no. And the prophecy always was about him, because hello he's the Champion. And they're so completely different that I don't see how Spike's story can violate Angel's. No way.
I need @Mrs Gordo here on this one.

I agree that the Shanshu is about Angel but it does make him question himself because of Spike's soul and I don't think this was necessary.

 

[badsister]

@WillowFromBuffy You then? I mean. Protect Angel at all costs ahahaha

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Well, there is also human!Darla, pregnant!Darla and imprinted-onto-Connor's-soul-ghost!Darla. Darla does not have Gollum/Smeagol-syndrome. That is an Angel thing, because out of the three, Angel is the one who hates his unsouled self the most.

I am with @badsister. Spike's getting a soul does not cheapen Angel's story. It strengthens it, because we see that the soul did not turn Spike into Angel. Ergo: It wasn't the soul that made Angel a champion, but the soul was a necessary prerequisite for Angel to make himself a champion.

Also, everybody loves a good love triangle. It is more than half the reason the Buffy-fandom exists.

 

[badsister]

it does make him question himself because of Spike's soul

I don't see it as a bad thing, Angel was always questioning himself I mean he had to, so much brooding and that's why his forehead is so big - it's full of secrets(yeah yeah I did it).

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

@WillowFromBuffy You then? I mean. Protect Angel at all costs ahahaha

Remember however that the thread is not about if Angel is the Champion but if the addition of another souled vampires was good or bad decision on the writer part!

 

[Cheese Slices]

I don't think it cheapens Angel's arc because, despite having the same thing happen to them (getting a soul), Spike and Angel have such a different way of dealing with it that they can coexist and constitute two extremely compelling and well written story.
It's as if saying that Kendra and Faith existing cheapens Buffy's story : it just doesn't.

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

I don't think it cheapens Angel's arc because, despite having the same thing happen to them (getting a soul), Spike and Angel have such a different way of dealing with it that they can coexist and constitute two extremely compelling and well written story.
It's as if saying that Kendra and Faith existing cheapens Buffy's story : it just doesn't.

That's an interesting comparision. However, I see Faith and Kendra as shadowselves for Buffy's path untaken. As for Spike soul as usually used as petty fights between Angel and Spike in S5.

 

[badsister]

That's an interesting comparision. However, I see Faith and Kendra as shadowselves for Buffy's path untaken. As for Spike soul as usually used as petty fights between Angel and Spike in S5.

Well Spike was brought in as a comic relief so you would only expect this.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I am with @badsister. Spike's getting a soul does not cheapen Angel's story. It strengthens it, because we see that the soul did not turn Spike into Angel. Ergo: It wasn't the soul that made Angel a champion, but the soul was a necessary prerequisite for Angel to make himself a champion.

I have lots of thoughts on the OP and I’ll try and come back and comment further but I do agree with the above. It doesn’t mean I’m not resentful of the s7 Spike storyline tracking Angel’s story and journey in almost embarrassingly obvious ways. But I think the fact that Angel remains unique after Spike gets a soul, just further emphasizes Angel’s exceptionalism in the verse. (Not always a good thing.) Also, because I do see some change in Spike after he is ensouled*, I think soul canon, and the importance of a soul is re-emphasized by his story (as well as Darla’s). I like that at the end of the day the lesson was : the soul matters. And Spike’s getting a soul was necessary towards that lesson.

*I am of course critical of Spike with a soul as well. But I do see a distinction to his unensouled counterpart.

 

[badsister]

It created a unnecessary love triangle between Angel, Spike and Buffy.

As much as I hate ship wars and ect well not hate just find tiring, it did spice up the show a bit, it always works, people mostly love triangles and this one was interesting to watch and in the show itself(we don't take comics in the account on this one) it was left unresolved, and people are still talking about it, that's actually a dream for any show, people are still discussing it even though um it's a controversial topic haha. They did it to keep the audience hooked up and interested and it kinda worked, I guess. It's just something that is common in mostly all shows, but if it didn't work they wouldn't use it. But again, I'm not a fan of things like that, but I can see why people would be invested.

 

[Cheese Slices]

That's an interesting comparision. However, I see Faith and Kendra as shadowselves for Buffy's path untaken. As for Spike soul as usually used as petty fights between Angel and Spike in S5.

Yeah as @badsister mentions Spike in Ats S5 isn't really Spike to begin with, as they decided to squander a great opportunity for character development (of both Spike and Angel) in order to have a cheap, OOC version of S4 Spike (do I sound bitter lol)

But in general I do think it reflects on each show respective philosophical stance : Angel's soul is linked to the bigger picture of things, TPTB and all the destiny thing, whereas Spike's is more personal, intimate and free will-ish.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Two souled vampires, especially THOSE two was perfect. They just messed up the delivery.

 

[badsister]

It makes the soul aspect of Angel laughable and almost not a curse anymore as Spike seems to be rapidly fine with it.

Why is it laughable, you think? I don't see that. And remember Darla with a soul?
I just have a headcanon for Angel's soul that since it is a curse that was designed specifically for him, it amplifies his guilt x100, so that he feels even more than the average person with a soul would.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Yeah as @badsister mentions Spike in Ats S5 isn't really Spike to begin with, as they decided to squander a great opportunity for character development (of both Spike and Angel) in order to have a cheap, OOC version of S4 Spike (do I sound bitter lol)

Well... BtVS S4 Spike was unsouled Spike without Drusilla, while AtS S5 Spike was souled Spike without Buffy. Spike's identity is centred around his woman, so he is always going to feel off when he is by himself.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Well... BtVS S4 Spike was unsouled Spike without Drusilla, while AtS S5 Spike was souled Spike without Buffy. Spike's identity is centred around his woman, so he is always going to feel off when he is by himself.

Off maybe, but not this way. I didn't think he felt off in S4, he still retained his core characteristics despite going through a lot of transformation. He was by himself in S3 as well, yet he was still a Spike that everyone could recognize.
In Ats, he is the Spike that the people who haven't been paying attention/ have been watching casually believe he is. Not to mention that no matter how different the environment and people he's with, three seasons of character development have occurred between Buffy S4 and Ats S5, and this doesn't just go away (although again, I actually don't think he is like S4 Spike at all).
There are some good moments with Spike in Ats, but they aren't worth the ton of shit we have to put up with, imo.

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

I have lots of thoughts on the OP and I’ll try and come back and comment further but I do agree with the above. It doesn’t mean I’m not resentful of the s7 Spike storyline tracking Angel’s story and journey in almost embarrassingly obvious ways.

*I am of course critical of Spike with a soul as well. But I do see a distinction to his unensouled counterpart.

I can't wait to have your full thoughts as I think you expressed it better than I could with the tracking of Angel's story throught Spike. I also think it was a dissertive to Spike that they tried and make their journey similar at the beginning of S5.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Not to mention that no matter how different the environment and people he's with, three seasons of character development have occurred between Buffy S4 and Ats S5, and this doesn't just go away (although again, I actually don't think he is like S4 Spike at all).

I disagree. Spike grew to be a better person for Buffy. With Buffy no longer around and being surrounded by people he does not care about, the sarcastic, depressed and diffident Spike comes forth again. Thinking that Spike would apologise to Harmony is expecting too much I think. I mean, he was hardly the better man when it came to Wood, was he?

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

As much as I hate ship wars and ect well not hate just find tiring, it did spice up the show a bit, it always works, people mostly love triangles and this one was interesting to watch and in the show itself(we don't take comics in the account on this one) it was left unresolved, and people are still talking about it, that's actually a dream for any show, people are still discussing it even though um it's a controversial topic haha. They did it to keep the audience hooked up and interested and it kinda worked, I guess. It's just something that is common in mostly all shows, but if it didn't work they wouldn't use it. But again, I'm not a fan of things like that, but I can see why people would be invested.

I think my biggest problem with it was that they took 2 of my favorites characters (Spike and Angel) and reduced them to Buffy past lovers when in fact they were so much more than that. I also believe that you can't compare of quantify the meaninfulness of their relationship with Buffy because they just didn't love the same Buffy as she had changed in her journey toward adulthood. I agree that it is effective thought for the show but for me it's like choosing between my 2 children.