The thing is you cant even fault the people who produce it when there are so many consumers for it. It certainly is an odd thing in this climate.
I'm fine with people slipping. Perfect people who don't change are boring. But that wasn't the case with Buffy, S5-7 is one long 'destroy the Buffy' journey. 3 years of depresso Buffy who tolerates stalkers, sleeps with soulless demons, wipes the butt of attempted rapists, has no brain to speak of (and no soul IMO), doesn't give a damn about humans and whines about her circumstances constantly when she's not busy trying to destroy the world. Good grief.
You can take it further even, in regards to Angel and Spike. If you are sorry for the wrong you did in the past, try to make amends for them, help people just because it's the right thing to do, build a life for yourself, not afraid to be on your own to find yourself, find friends and make a family because you yourself desire it so you work for it, constantly sacrifice so others are safe/happy/protected...you deserve nothing but eternal punishment. If you however are a selfish asshole, care only for yourself and whoever you are obsessed about, blame everyone else for the sh*t you have done, mooch off of others, just follow along what's convenient instead of finding yourself, victim-blame, hide behind some fake mask because you are too scared of the real you...nothing bad ever happens to you. In fact you get everything handed to you on a silver platter without having to do anything.
Who thinks of Buffy as a feminist icon? As soon as she was sacrificed at Spike's penis, she becomes the perfect example of non-feminist. Although the 'forced adoption' of Dawn screams the opposite of feminism as well.
Considering how screwed up feminism has become, I would be careful with that word. Feminists rally behind any woman, even if she is pro FGM and Sharia Law. Think about that for a second. But no feminists in sight when women get stoned to death, mass raped/groomed, killed etc. It seriously does not make sense to me. So just because people praise Buffy as a feminist show/character, doesn't make it so IMO, as feminism is royally screwed up as it currently is.
Ok hold it there - that is an egregious generalisation and blackwashing of feminism. First of all feminism, like most socio-political ideologies, is not by any means a coherent and unified movement so of course there going to excesses, ther are going to be women who use the label to further their own grievances or to gain publicity. And there are certainly problems with modern feminism and the way the word is thrown around these days, especially with the rise of the internet.
Equality is a two way street. Which is not what main stream or modern feminism is. There it only goes one way, to women.
Oh goodie, so Angel is now all about hentai monster sex?Oh come on now, that's not all true, the writers apparently feel that he deserves cuddles with this:
Honestly I think this is an issue long past. I don't really understand why it was brought up in S10 at all, because if you look back at S7, by the end of it Buffy has forgiven him for everything in all but words. By Chosen she's happy to share his bed. If she had any conflicted feelings about him as 'the man who wears the face of her attempted rapist', they were gone by then else she wouldn't have felt comfortable enough to stay with him. So I don't understand why it resurfaced in the comics at all, except as an attempt by the writers to make up for not addressing it adequately early in S7. Its sudden emergence comes across as awkward to me (then again I haven't read the issue, just read about it).
I was thinking about something in a similar vein today. What often emerges in discussions about Angel and Spike is that Angel is by nature a person who constantly looks back, and therefore has difficulty moving forward, whereas Spike is always focused on the moment. This is true; however, what hardly ever comes up is how unbelievably convenient this also is. One of the reasons Angel is focused on his past is simply because his past is always coming back to kick his arse! The guy can never catch a break: Darla, Spike, Dru, Penn, Judy, Darla again, Dru again, Holtz, Lawson - they're always popping up in one way or another. OTOH Spike's serious confrontations with his (non-Buffy) past consisted of Wood, via Dana and...oh wait, that's it! (unless the comics brought up more....?). Ok so it's not that balanced a comparison as Spike only had two TV seasons with his soul, but I have a feeling it was also because of hesitation on part of the writers about showing us too much of Spike's truly heinous crimes as a soulless vampire in case they lost fans. Personally I think it would have made his journey far more complex and intriguing. And you'd think this would be ripe material for the comics' writers but instead he simply seems to be 'supportive vampire boyfriend'.
Well they can't, can they? They're kept apart by very contrived writing. Also no-one seems to have picked up on the fact that despite his flaws Angel is actually a highly intelligent man and is not always a helpless slave to his anxieties.
That's the bone of contention right there. I do understand the argument that Angel was her past, and they have has separate lives for so long and it can be seen as a little contrived for her to go back to him. However, the writers kept bringing them back to each other for brief interludes throughout the show with a mind to keep that relationship going in some way and so stressed the depth of their bond as more than simply first love. If you really intend for Buffy to move on why keep bringing Angel up - just make a clean break of it and actually have them move on! Why have them make kissy-face at the end of the series?
Because that would actually be a smart move and we can't have Angel doing smart things anymore.
Well, Angel wasn't really the smartest apple in the bunch to begin with. He was kinda slow on the uptake a lot it seemed.
So incredibly well said.
With the exception of the curse (which no one really talks about anymore) Buffy and Angel have many of the similar problems that Spike and Buffy have. What long term plans does Buffy see with Spike? She said once before: "And, no, I don't see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike," so what are her thoughts now? How have any of the obstacles she had with Angel's vampirism changed at all with Spike?
The story sold to me over and over again is that Buffy and Angel can NEVER BE there is so much in the way of them being together. But really I'm starting to think its all kind of crap. Especially since she is so very easily able to be in a relationship with Spike. If the story is that Buffy is no longer in love with Angel or Angel is no longer in love with Buffy then just go ahead and tell the readers this - instead of stringing us along by saying things like:
"I loved him. Fought him. Killed him. Hated him and Now. Now I don't know what I feel. And that scares me most of all." in Season 10 (Vol. 4)
And don't get me started on Angel because really how many times can he walk away?
Has he ever considered that being with him could be her happiness? That he could be the one to make good memories with her? He never fights for her. They never fight for each other. Its incredibly frustrating. The existence of the relationship between Spike and Buffy only exists because the potential for her relationship with Angel is never addressed.
And please, this notion that "you always love your first love" is completely overdone (I can't tell you how many posts I've seen about that since the ILY came out yesterday). Raise your hand if you are still in love with the loser you dated in high school. Probably not many of you so I don't buy that. She is not still in love with Angel because that was her first love. If she is still in love with Angel it is because that love was grand and significant to both of them not merely because it came first or because it came when Buffy was young.
With regards to her current relationship with Spike. Here is the thing. I have no problems with creating a distinction between Soulless Spike's actions and Soulful Spike's actions. Based on my readings in the comics he does seem slightly different if maybe more boring. But I continue to have a few problems with this relationship.
1. The treatment of the post A/R relationship. Even if I am not going to blame Soulful Spike for the A/R, I want an accurate representation of Buffy dealing with the fall out of an attempted rape. For her to so easily and without issue be in a sexual relationship with a man that wears the face of her attempted rapist is wildly upsetting to the narrative that is being told about sexual assault. But I supposed that is a Season 10 issue. And as @Taake says above I despise the narrative that sexual assault can be the catalyst to a commendable path to redemption. "Oh what great heroism in getting his soul."
2. My reading of the comics is that Spike has a hero complex with Buffy. He would go to the ends of the world for her. But that sorda thing can get old. And quite frankly its boring to watch. There is no significant conflict. Although its ridiculous that there isn't because there is such great potential for there to be conflict. They had a good opportunity to show great conflict in Buffy's handling of the A/R for example. Showing a significant struggle. A break up. Anger. But no it was treated with little conflict just a small argument and then a hug out.
3. Much of what @Grace says above - Why does everything come so incredibly freaking easy with Spike. He has never had to "deal" with his soul. He was an incredibly depraved killer for so long and he seems unaffected what so ever and in fact he seems rather well adjusted. How is that realistic? How is it fair that the creators see the need to put Buffy and Angel through so many trials and Spike gets to breeze by anchored soul, song in his step, no problemo. Its incredibly infuriating to me. How is that not incredibly infuriating to Buffy? Doesn't she feel that it is unfair that he doesn't have any of the same feelings or burdens that she and Angel have? Doesn't she feel that perhaps he will never understand her for that very reason? Spike has everything he can want. He doesn't want to be human. He wants to be a vampire who has the love of his slayer. He gets it. Now what? Where does his story go from here?
4. This relationship looks alot like Buffy/Riley. Except this Buffy is so different from the Buffy on the show - maybe Comic!Buffy won't get bored and drive him away. But if my Buffy is still in there I can see her starting to stir.
5. I miss the old Spike. I'm a fan of early Spike. And I saw bits and pieces of early Spike in Season 6 and sooooooooome in Season 7. Now he is relegated to the sidekick boyfriend. Does he get an arc? Or are his real fans content to have him be an arm piece for the Slayer.
I can't conceive of a way in which I would want Buffy to make her way back to Angel after this. I say that now and I'll change my mind on this tomorrow so don't quote me on this but I don't see narratively how you can make your way back from this. But I'm going to go write some fan fiction about it anyway 😉
I agree that the issue should have been addressed with more care and depth for exactly the reasons you mention, but what I'm saying is that it's resurgence in S10 strikes me as clumsy because Buffy has already resumed a relationship with him, and has been 'friends/snuggle buddies' (at the very least) with him since S7. It's as if the writers went 'oh yeah, need to address that one fan objection so we can go full-steam ahead with Spuffy'. It's very awkward and uncomfortable, after which everything is fine again. IMO it's a case of too little, too late. (NB: I don't actually remember exactly how the comics panel went - I saw it online a while ago. Maybe someone can remind me?)
Heh, doesn't quite have the same ring to it does it? 😉 Besides, the phrase is from Latin: 'advocatus Diaboli' and the term 'advocate' is still used elsewhere in the English legal system anyway. We don't have separate words for everything, ya know (but ours are of course much better.😛)
It's not borne out of attempted, that's true. But it is born first with him trying to kill her which switched in S5 to him stalking her (and everything else he did). The attempted rape is just the climax but not the beginning. If someone were to ship Spuffy pre-S7 in the sense of...this is so effed up and a train wreck but it's supposed to be and I enjoy it for that because it works with the arc but would never want them be together again after, that I can understand. Or if someone were to only ship S7 Spuffy because now he has a soul but are against the pre-soul relationship, again I could understand. But most ship both as 'part of the journey of the ship'. That's what's problematic for me.
Now I might remember this wrong but they got a lot of angry letters from Spuffies not to touch the AR long before S10. Which is probably why they a) didn't do it sooner and b) basically only mentioned it and moved on. Hence awkward and uncomfortable.
But here is the difference for me. Angel and Angelus are so vastly different they might as well be 2 totally different guys (according to comics canon they are separate). And Buffy spend the first half of S3 not knowing really how to deal with him, so much so that even by 'Enemies' just Angel faking to be Angelus completely rattles her. So even though we thought everything was well after 'Amends', it clearly wasn't. The last year was still with Buffy, probably due to a lack of examination as to how Buffy dealt with it. And Buffy and Angel for that matter, because clearly beyond 'Amends' they didn't talk to each other about it. But that's still more examination than we got post AR with Buffy. Instead Buffy looks sad when the guy who just attempted to rape her has left town and she wants to bring her virginal sister to him (no really, WTF). Spike is allowed to victim blame Buffy (via the rewrite by Joss himself). Which in itself is problematic. Why is souled Spike blaming her for something she didn't even do to him? After all he is a 'new' guy and that's why he deserves a chance. And the whole arc is about how Spike dealt with it post AR. There are only what, 2 flinches by Buffy? No, just no, to that kind of storytelling. Because that only adds to rape culture.
It should have been addressed in S7. If not then S8, at the latest. Interesting that Buffy didn't sleep with anyone again since the attempted rape until S8. In between those are what, 3 years? And the first time she does, it's with a woman and not a man. Curious, isn't it?
Same for me, which is why I said 'at least by the end of S7', since S Rou's was taking the AR as a starting point and so referring to Spuffy as it was in S7.
Why so? Is it just that they didn't want it brought up again?
Pretty much yep. That's why it's important to look at how both storylines are presented, because you can't really look at them in terms of real-world realism. A soulless Angel was a murderer (and probably rapist), a soulless chipped Spike was an attempted rapist, and muzzled murderer, so realistically speaking Buffy choosing to enter into a relationship with either of them is bonkers. But of course this is a world of fantasy and myth so you have to approach it differently.
Delusion, isn't it wonderful? Very Spike-like.
When it looked like Spike was there to stay and you could see the writing on the wall for Spuffy, yes they didn't want the topic to come up again. So they wrote angry letters. This was said to someone who was in direct contact with the writers back then. That wasn't an official thing or anything. At least that's how I remember it but it's been years since I read that and I'm getting old.
No, you can't. A most they are metaphors for real life. At the very least you have to (loosely) look at Angel as someone with something akin to D.I.D. (formerly Multiple Personality Disorder) where Buffy chose to be involved with his good side but not his bad personality. Whereas with Spike she chose to be with the bad personality. From Buffy's end in regards to Spike, she is the police officer who had multiple chances to take out a mass murderer to eliminate him from being a danger to society. And not only did she not do that but chose to be involved sexually with said mass murder. Don't tell me that's not utterly screwed up.
I just...can't with that scene. It still leaves me speechless as to WTF the writers were thinking. To take her virginal sister to the guy who just tried to rape her. A guy who has just proven to Buffy for the 1000th time how unpredictable he is, I just can't make sense of it. Especially since Spike's chip won't work on Dawn as Dawn isn't human and Buffy should freaking know this. Also Spike can't protect Dawn from either Warren or Willow as both are human. Later Seasons Buffy is dumb as a rock. Sorry, but it's true.
If you do, look up the original church scene from 'Beneath You' and then watch the episode with Whedon's rewritten version in it. It's...different. And baffling. And considering what has come to light about Whedon, maybe it's more about himself really.
Gotta ask - why does Dawn's virginity matter in this?
Yeah that one I've read, but I want to watch the episode again before I look at both closely.
