As a Bangel, how do you feel about the inevitable Spuffy ILY?

[Skanky Vamp]

Gotta ask - why does Dawn's virginity matter in this?

There is a train of thought that Spike alluded to liking young virginal girls.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Gotta ask - why does Dawn's virginity matter in this?

Rape is rape but don't you think raping a virginal child is just a smidgen even worse? Especially in light of what Spike says to Buffy in S7, that he did those things and worse to girls of Dawn's age. Which you know, soulless vampire so a definite possibility as to what could have happened in S6 if Buffy brought her to Spike. Especially when you consider the state of mind Spike was in.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

Spoiler

So here it is for anyone who would like to see it and have any pertinent corresponding emotional responses.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

If the only issue is Angel's curse, why can't he just go to the demon Spike went to and get his soul anchored.

Not to mention I hear there is a book in the comics where you can write stuff and make it come true?

It's as if the writers went 'oh yeah, need to address that one fan objection so we can go full-steam ahead with Spuffy'.

I think this is exactly what happened but to be fair, Buffy and Spike were not seeing each other in Seasons 8 or most of 9 I don’t think either (maybe towards end if 9? I get bit muddy on the comic seasons).

As to the question of the realism of resuming a relationship with the perpetrator, I hate to say it but her experience with Angel also kind of defies realism as well.

I think @RomanticSoul pretty much said what I would have said but I’ll add a few things.

First let me get this out of the way. Angelus is a horrible, evil, depraved murderer, rapist, probably worse than Spike. Angelus could have and likely would have, given enough time, raped Buffy and done much worse than he actually did in Season 2. Full. Stop.

Now - we have two evil vamps. Angelus v. Spike. I have no problem even agreeing that Angelus is the more evil of the two but if we compare their actions ON THE SHOW only they aren't all that different.

Both vampires killed people while in Sunnydale. Angelus killed Jenny so that was emotionally close to Buffy (although I gotta say personally I didn't see such a tight bond between Buffy and Jenny - Buffy was more affected because of the effect this had on Giles).
Both vampires tried to kill her although really Angelus only tried to kill her because she went to stop him from opening Acathala while Spike actively tried to kill her in School Hard, Halloween, and then sent Assassins in WML.
Both vampires tortured people that they cared about. Angelus tortured Giles and Spike tortured Angel TWICE (WML and Into the Dark). (Questionable whether Buffy knew about Into the Dark, I head canon she didn't because I would hope she would have been a bit more pissed).
Both vampires threatened her friends lives, Angelus threatened Willow's life once at least and Spike twice.

So generally from Buffy's perspective both of them were pretty on par with each other I would say (although of course Angelus' actions would hit a little closer to home given her relationship with Angel). Of course she decided to kill one and sleep with the other but there was a chip and anyway I digress...

The major difference I would argue is the A/R. Angelus never tried to rape Buffy. (And again, believe me, I know he probably had plans to do so but got distracted with Dru or ending the world and so he never did). And that distinction to me as a woman feels very significant. While both vampires committed murders and tortured other people the A/R was a very PERSONAL transgression against Buffy that I feel would likely deal with a more difficult time resuming a sexual relationship with the man who wore the face of the perpetrator.

If you think about it, Buffy never SAW Angelus kill Jenny. She saw the fall out. She saw the pain he was causing her friends but I don't she ever even saw him kill someone. So she isn't having nightmares of him snapping her neck. What Spike did to Buffy was done to her, it was personal in nature. She has to live with the nightmares and the trauma of what was done at that moment. That is why I struggle with her readily accept him in her bed in Season 7 and resuming a sexual relationship with him in Season 10.

I just want to emphasize again, one more time that I am not defending Angelus' actions or saying he is ANY better than Spike because I don't want people to misinterpret this post. I am merely talking about Buffy's perspective on the actions committed in the story by the two vamps.

I'll end by saying this - I think the A/R was ballsy and it was shocking and I commend them for going there but then they went there and they wrote themselves into a hole. If they had plans to have Buffy and Spike resume their relationship instead of an attempted rape why not make it him trying to bite her or turn her? It could be a metaphor for being violated without the real world implications of it weighing heavily on their beloved pairing.

 

[EarthLogic]

@dcai830 I'm with you on the AR being more personal transgression, which is why I'm saying that the two situations are ultimately quite different because Buffy's experience of them is totally different.

 

[Taaroko]

Whoa, I've missed some good discussion in this thread. What particularly struck me was the observation that everything in the comics seems to be smooth sailing for Spike, while Buffy and Angel are always forced to make sacrifices and continue fighting the good fight without ever catching a break. This is a serious problem, and it doesn't match with what each of these character types need in a satisfying story.

Spike is arrogant, self-absorbed, entitled, and largely devoid of compassion. Characters like that must never be permitted to get what they want until their egos have been stripped away through repeated hardship, they recognize that they have been the engineers of their own misery instead of the innocent victims, and they acknowledge the validity of other people's feelings. Cordelia and Faith are very similar to Spike, but they actually go through the proper refining process, so that in the end you actually do root for them (though Cordelia's arc was rather badly fumbled). This is why Spike's best season after Buffy S4 was Angel S5. For all his bluster, he got very little attention and faced numerous setbacks, until "Damage," in which he was well and truly humbled for the first time since getting his soul. Wood should have been enough to humble him in S7, but the writers were too set on being on Team Spike to realize what a disservice they were doing to their favorite character by having him come out on top in the encounter with Wood, to say nothing of how he interacted with Buffy all season. Characters like Spike should never be permitted to "get the girl" or whatever their big goal is, at least as long as they still believe the universe owes it to them.

On the other hand, with selfless, compassionate characters like Buffy and Angel, to punish them and deprive them of the few, reasonable things they want will only make them stronger for so long. Eventually, it will crush their spirits and make them miserable cynics. Once it's clear that they will put the greater good above their own desires, there's no need to keep leaving them with nothing for their trouble. At the very least, give them hope for the future, but it would probably be more interesting to watch two characters like that actually be allowed to be a couple and work together as a team, especially after everything they've been through in their years apart.

 

[EarthLogic]

This is why Spike's best season after Buffy S4 was Angel S5. For all his bluster, he got very little attention and faced numerous setbacks, until "Damage," in which he was well and truly humbled for the first time since getting his soul. Wood should have been enough to humble him in S7, but the writers were too set on being on Team Spike to realise what a disservice they were doing to their favourite character by having him come out on top in the encounter with Wood, to say nothing of how he interacted with Buffy all season.

I wonder how people here think Spike's journey should have been done in S7, especially with regard to his confrontation with his past crimes? I peeked into one of the Spuffy threads where posters have mentioned how Spike is criticised for not having as much a distinction between his unsouled/souled selves - i.e. for not following the character development Angel has (basically what we sometimes to argue on this forum😉). But it got me thinking about what we on the opposite side of the argument would like to actually have seen. Tbh I personally would have hated it if he had just been Angel 2.0 - being immediately humbled and remorseful and having a softer personality than his evil self. Not only would it have been unimaginative but it would have bolstered the argument some fans make that he is more 'worthy' of Buffy in a 'see he's just like Angel, but done so much better!' kind of way. I actually kind of like that they're so different because otherwise it might have reduced Angel to just being seen as an imperfect prototype for the vampire-with-a-soul concept.

Going back to your post @Taaroko r.e. Wood, how do you think it should have been handled? How could they have written it in a way which allowed Spike to gain some humility, but maintained his individuality? I'm going to go away and have a think about this but I'd like to get everyone else's thoughts in the meantime.

 

[Taaroko]

Well you can't fix the problem with how Wood was handled without first addressing Buffy's behavior towards Spike. She should've been wary of him or maybe supportive but more distant, rather than taking personal responsibility for him and letting him stay in her basement and all that nonsense. You could almost swap the way Buffy treats Spike with the way she treats Faith, and it would fix most of what makes her frustrating and unsympathetic in S7 (I'm talking about levels of trust, respect and forgiveness, not romantic potential).

So, once Buffy is handling the Spike situation how she actually would have if so many writers hadn't been Team Spike, the stage is set for Wood. Buffy should've been far more supportive of Wood's hatred and desire for revenge. Instead of telling him she'd let Spike kill him if he did that again, she should've told him that even though she understands, he can't punish the soul for what the demon did. Neither of them can.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

If you think about it, Buffy never SAW Angelus kill Jenny. She saw the fall out. She saw the pain he was causing her friends but I don't she ever even saw him kill someone. So she isn't having nightmares of him snapping her neck. What Spike did to Buffy was done to her, it was personal in nature. She has to live with the nightmares and the trauma of what was done at that moment. That is why I struggle with her readily accept him in her bed in Season 7 and resuming a sexual relationship with him in Season 10.

Finally, someone put it into words. This is exactly why I can never truly support Spuffy. It's horrifying to me how quickly we're supposed get over AR, just because he has a soul now.

No, I wont. Angel fights everyday to keep his soul, to make up for his actions as Angelus. Meanwhile, Spike is just being Buffy's little love slave and barely cares about his past. Buffy doesn't care about what he did to her either and that is just not realistic at all.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Buffy doesn't care about what he did to her either and that is just not realistic at all.

Actually it IS realistic. There are a disturbing amount of women that will continue to date/stay with their partner even after they were forced on them. Not addressing it is the problem, but to say just because Spike tried to rape her (and didnt succeed) her being with him is not realistic is simply not true.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

Actually it IS realistic. There are a disturbing amount of women that will continue to date/stay with their partner even after they were forced on them. Not addressing it is the problem, but to say just because Spike tried to rape her (and didnt succeed) her being with him is not realistic is simply not true.

Maybe it hits a little bit too close to home for me. Ok, unfortunately it is realistic, but in my opinion it is not realistic for the Buffy Summers I know and love.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

it is not realistic for the Buffy Summers I know and love.

Well, most of S6 was out of character also. S6 and seven were a different show, simple as that. It's the only way to really look at it.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I wonder how people here think Spike's journey should have been done in S7, especially with regard to his confrontation with his past crimes? I peeked into one of the Spuffy threads where posters have mentioned how Spike is criticised for not having as much a distinction between his unsouled/souled selves - i.e. for not following the character development Angel has (basically what we sometimes to argue on this forum😉). But it got me thinking about what we on the opposite side of the argument would like to actually have seen. Tbh I personally would have hated it if he had just been Angel 2.0 - being immediately humbled and remorseful and having a softer personality than his evil self. Not only would it have been unimaginative but it would have bolstered the argument some fans make that he is more 'worthy' of Buffy in a 'see he's just like Angel, but done so much better!' kind of way. I actually kind of like that they're so different because otherwise it might have reduced Angel to just being seen as an imperfect prototype for the vampire-with-a-soul concept.

That was never my problem with Spike. No two people are the same, hence I don't expect them to have the same reaction to the same circumstances. My problem will forever be that not enough was changed about Spike once he had a soul. He's basically still Spike and the writers were aware of that, otherwise why the need to constantly have Buffy in S7 say 'he has a soul now'. It's not for the benefit of anyone in the show because all the people there are aware of that fact. It's for the casual viewer IMO who wouldn't know the difference between S7 and S5 Spike for example. And there lies the problem, viewers loved Spike as he was so they couldn't fundamentally change him in the way it was done with Angel/Angelus. Being an iconic character sucks.

I didn't even mind him clinging to what was familiar right after getting a soul. Because Angel and Darla did the same. Angel tried to get back to what he knew, his former vampire family. Darla clung to her former self as well, by playing games with Angel because that was familiar to her. But if W&H and Dru hadn't come in, I saw Darla's turning point during her scene with Angel in the hotel. Eventually though there has to be change, a significant one, because otherwise why bother giving someone a soul if it doesn't really have any effect.

But Spike kept going as he was. He kept the same hair, clothes, fake accent, humor, victim status...you name it. All the things that make him Spike. And he shouldn't because otherwise the soul is useless and the argument that he deserves a chance because he has a soul, doesn't hold much water.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

@RomanticSoul That's another thing that irks me. The fact that he keeps wearing the jacket of a dead slayer. One of the reasons why I understand Wood's vendetta in season 7.

 

[RomanticSoul]

This is why Spike's best season after Buffy S4 was Angel S5. For all his bluster, he got very little attention and faced numerous setbacks, until "Damage," in which he was well and truly humbled for the first time since getting his soul.

Here is the big problem for me though. The rest of S5 doesn't match that. So it seemed to be just be a momentary humble than a permanent one. There is the after and before. I'm sure I could come up with something more but these things stick out to me and always stayed with me.

Angel: You stripped it off the body of a dead slayer.
Spike: Which gives it great sentimental value.

Sentimental value? So you are still missing your killing days then? The Dana thing clearly didn't stick. Imagine Angel keeping something of Jenny's for sentimental value. The Angel haters would be up in arms about it, using it to defend their souled Angel hate. Hell even the Angel lovers would be like WTF. I know I would.

-------
Angel: Sex is not a relationship.
Spike: It is if you do it enough times.

So basically all that counts is sex and how much you do it. Nothing else. Not how you treat each other, what you share, not if your partner is happy...basically everything that makes a relationship doesn't matter. Certainly explains why he was never terribly concerned about Buffy's feelings or her well being while in a 'relationship' with her.

------
Speaking of Buffy, this is my favorite from S5 AtS and I can't believe the writers have him actually say this. I'll only write the significant line, I'm sure you know where this is from.

Spike: Guess that means she was thinking about you... all those times I was puttin' it to her.

I just...can't. I can't fathom, just from this line, how anyone can ship this guy with Buffy. It's utterly disgusting. First of all it's profoundly disrespectful to Buffy, the woman he supposedly loves, to speak of her like that. But more disturbing than that is the implication when you think back to S6. He was putting it to her when she was clinically depressed, he was putting it to her when he mentally and emotionally abused her and of course he was trying to put it to her when he attempted to rape her. I think that was the most disgusted I have ever been with this character and that's saying something. How can a supposedly souled Spike talk about what happened back then in such a manner? All it proves to me, again, is that the soul has zero effect on Spike. A souled being with a smidgen of decency wouldn't say this.

 

[Taaroko]

Well, "best" season for character development doesn't necessarily mean "good." :/ I think what I enjoyed most about the portrayal of Spike on Angel over Spike on BtVS was that he was back to being an impulsive moron and the butt of the jokes for the first time in years. He is the absolute bottom of the totem pole in the Angel cast, as he should be.

It still would've been better if he'd dropped the "Spike" performance after getting his soul, and we got to see who the crap William really is. Meh.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Spike: Guess that means she was thinking about you... all those times I was puttin' it to her.

I had forgotten that line is that Destiny?

 

[RomanticSoul]

I had forgotten that line is that Destiny?

Yep. And I have never forgotten it.

 

[Mylie]

Yes if LMPTM made me think I would never enjoy souled Spike, Destiny comfirmed it.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Yes if LMPTM made me think I would never enjoy souled Spike, Destiny comfirmed it.

Yeah, souled Spike is a giant, entitled douche bag. But that's true of life. A soul doesn't guarantee a decent or good human being. And hey, if Joss and Co. think Buffy deserves nothing better than a guy who is proud that he sexually got the woman he stalked and then abused and almost raped and then brags about it in the most disrespectful way...oh well. At least they are doing their part adding to all these effed up messages Hollywood is so fond of. No wonder healthy relationships or even long lasting ones are getting rarer and rarer.