Question Best as a Big Bad or a Champion?

[Poetic Life]

I'm probably going to get a lot of argument here, but I've always preferred Spike as an evil character. The whole arc about the chip was to make him funnier and to replace Cordelia, and I will admit that he was hilarious there, but the soul in season seven and him without one in most of season five and six left me unimpressed. I honestly believe that if he had just stayed evil, he could have been the one to bring down the scooby gang.

When he was evil, he was smart. He watched the Slayer fighting to notice things like her resourcefulness (yes, Spike/Buffy fans, I am ignoring you for now) and the way she fights. When he wasn't sure who the Slayer was, he used the fact that she didn't know who he was either to find out, then caught her off-guard by attacking on a different day.

Then we find out that vampires have hidden depths and that he doesn't really want the world to end. I can believe that. The happy meals with legs speech was funny too. All he wanted was Angelus gone, Dru back, and to save the world.

Of course, things don't always work out as planned. Drusilla dumps him for a chaos demon, and he comes back and gives the love's bitch speech. He goes away, comes back, and gets captured mid-evil monologue.

Once he escapes, he tries to bite Willow and discovers he can't. I can watch that scene over and over and still laugh. Spike ends up on Giles's doorstep parboiling under a blanket and they take him in.

After he was chained up in the bathtub and then in Xander's basement, he returned to his crypt to do favours for them. For money. Because he's still evil, people!

Then, of course, he falls in love with Buffy. Sorry, Spike/Buffy fans, but were the writers high? He's evil, and she's already dated a vampire! I'm very emphatic about this being one of the worst pairings. This obsessive love makes him stalk her, brood, and basically turns him into a funnier Angel with very different colouring. The best episode with him in it that season was Fool For Love, because it included Dru, Darla, Angelus, Spike's mother, Cecily/Halfrek, and Spike being actually evil.

They needed a character to point out the things no one else would, and in seasons two, three, four, and most of five. He was necessary in season six to keep the light tone, but he barely did that. I actually started to dislike him, and that was before he tried to rape Buffy. (Also, what part of that sounds like a healthy relationship to you?)

In season seven, he might as well have not been there. Getting his soul back was about the worst thing he could've done, although the final scene in Beneath Me was excellent. I wasn't fond of season seven for a lot of reasons, this being one of them.

In Angel season five, he gets it all back, with an exception for The Girl In Question. He was hilarious as a ghost and even better when he was made corporeal. This is mostly because he mocks Angel every opportunity he gets and in comparison to the rest of them, he seems evil. I will admit that one of his best scenes in Buffy or Angel was rescuing the woman in the alley and telling her off afterwards, and that he did think he was acting as a champion there.

What do you think? Was he best good or evil?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I agree with your post 100% Spike was so much better off without Spuffy dragging him down, it was poison to both Spike and Buffy. The only time Spuffy worked for me was in Something Blue where it was played as a joke. I much prefer Spike with Drusilla, even the dynamic with Harmony is better than the "romance" with Buffy IMO. Spuffy was so unhealthy for both characters and there is no way in hell that anything good can come from that realistically. I loved Spike as a villain and I loved that even though he was "evil" he still showed a caring side for Dru.

 

[Poetic Life]

Exactly. And this is without even mentioning the Buffybot. He was so much better evil.

 

[Athena]

Spuffy was unhealthy, but sometimes relationships are. It's not all rose petals and orchestral music when it comes to relationships. This ain't no Disney movie 😉

Saying this, Spike was a fantastic antagonist, especially in the mid-seasons when he was on the side of good for his own nefarious dealings. But everyone loves a redemption arc, and his is one of the best on TV, because you have to reach rock bottom to pull yourself back up and become a better person. He chose the good life because he saw the bad was so rotten. That's why he's such a fantastic multi-faceted character. 🙂

 

[Guy]

Here's the thing - Spike was only a truly great villain for a grand total of ONE episode. 'School Hard'. In that episode, he's a fantastic villain. But after that we don't see him for a couple of episodes, and then in 'Halloween' he was just a side-villain while Rayne stole the show, and Buffy beat the crap out of him, and in 'Lie to Me' he was again just a side show, and in 'What's My Line' his arc as a Big Bad was wrapped up in a pretty underwhelming way (not bad, but certainly not living up to the promise of 'School Hard' either). And after that, Spike was NEVER a true Big Bad again. He was a foil to Angelus in the second half of season 2, and from 'Lovers Walk' onward, Spike was only a COMEDIC villain. He was a GREAT comedic villain, but still - he was no Big Bad. As Dawn says - "Please, I'm badder than you". As Buffy says - "You're not even a loser anymore, you're a SHELL of a loser".

Honestly, I think that Spike was at his best in the transition years - seasons 5 & 6, when he wasn't really evil anymore, but he wasn't really good either. He was an exceptionally interesting and moving character in that time, very grey in his morality, and consistently entertaining and fascinating. And his chemistry with Buffy was amazing.

But to answer the question - Spike was better as a champion than as a Big Bad. As a Big Bad, Spike was great for one episode. As a champion, Spike was great for a far longer period of time.

 

[thetopher]

He was so much better evil. Spuffy kinda ruined his character in the long run.

and from 'Lovers Walk' onward, Spike was only a COMEDIC villain. He was a GREAT comedic villain

Harsh Light Of Day
In The Dark
The Yoko Factor/Primeval
Out Of My Mind
Crush
Smashed
As You Were
Seeing Red

Spike was various forms of true evil in these episodes, just for starters.

 

[Guy]

Spuffy kinda ruined his character in the long run.

I think you misspelled "greatly improved". 😛

Harsh Light Of Day
In The Dark

True, kinda, but that's just two episodes. He wasn't a Big Bad there, he was just a villain-of-the-week.

The Yoko Factor/Primeval
Out Of My Mind
Crush
Smashed
As You Were
Seeing Red

Was he evil to various degrees in these episodes? Sure. But he was not a "Big Bad". He could hardly be described as a "villain" in most of these episodes, and he certainly couldn't be described as a GREAT villain in any of them. My point is - Spike was only a great Big Bad for ONE episode - 'School Hard'. And I stand by that.

 

[GoSpuffy]

He was great in both roles but I voted champion because I do love S5-7 best. No matter what he did it was entertaining to watch and he made it all so believable.

 

[InsectDirigible]

Then, of course, he falls in love with Buffy. Sorry, Spike/Buffy fans, but were the writers high? He's evil, and she's already dated a vampire! I'm very emphatic about this being one of the worst pairings. This obsessive love makes him stalk her, brood, and basically turns him into a funnier Angel with very different colouring.

I think the writers were aware he was evil, just as much as they were aware of the opportunity to take his character and make an interesting storyline that played off of what was an obsession for her rather than a fluffy, healthy romance. During season 5, Buffy was generally repulsed by him and made every effort to keep him out of her life except at times that he unfortunately proved to be of use otherwise. They made a lot of effort to be sure that it came off exactly as you described - an obsessive 'love' that had him acting like an unstable stalker.
The cool thing to me, writing-wise, was that he'd been shown to have an obsession for her from the very beginning, and so it wasn't absurd for his character to progress to that dark infatuation he ended up with.
I don't think most Spike/Buffy fans are unaware of this. It's the consideration that there was more to it than than that.

He was necessary in season six to keep the light tone

Season 6? Spike/Buffy generally bringing in a light tone?

(Also, what part of that sounds like a healthy relationship to you?)

It doesn't. The writers didn't want to make it seem like it was, either, I don't think. Again, I don't think most Spike/Buffy fans are unaware of this, hopefully. Later on, they both acknowledge that it wasn't for various reasons.
There were highlights, lowlights, and reasons both of them did bad things and good things to various degrees of relatability.

In season seven, he might as well have not been there.

They had to show he'd been completely broken down and rebuilt. We see that the way he treated Buffy and others genuinely bothers him, and that he's working on dealing with it. I think Big Bad Spike was more badass, but I don't see why getting a soul back was the worst thing he could have done. At that point, it was pretty much the only thing that would have made him morally redeemable as a character.

 

[thetopher]

I think you misspelled "greatly improved".

Nope, Spike is nothing more than 'the boyfriend' now, greatly reduced imo.

True, kinda, but that's just two episodes.

You said that, after season 3 Spike was 'only ever' a comedic villain, nothing about being a Big Bad. He was evil, villainous, whatever.
He was a bad guy/threat and so people can say 'oh yeah, Spike was really an enjoyable bad guy in those episodes', which is what the poster was asking. 😉

Was he evil to various degrees in these episodes?

He worked with/aided Big Bad Adam for his own reasons- so that puts him on the same footing as Faith in S3.

Every other time he's an antagonist working with other evil characters- Drusilla or Harmony- or doing evil things on his own (demon eggs, attempted rape) and ends up hurting another main character.

And whilst he was a really great bad guy he wasn't really a good 'champion', certainly you could point to many, many moments in S7 where he is more hindrance than help- secretly killing people, the trigger, etc.

 

[Guy]

Nope, Spike is nothing more than 'the boyfriend' now, greatly reduced imo.

"Now", as in season 10? I agree, to an extent. He's TOO moral, with not enough conflict. He's still a good character, but not as much as before. But in seasons 5-9, Spuffy was fantastic for Spike's character.

You said that, after season 3 Spike was 'only ever' a comedic villain, nothing about being a Big Bad. He was evil, villainous, whatever.

And I stand by it, as a general statement, but let me clarify - after season 3, Spike was either a comedic villain, or a minor side-villain (like when he was with Adam or Harmony) who's still mostly there just to make things more fun. The only exceptions are 'Harsh Light of Day' and 'In the Dark', and even then he's got that comedic "pathetic failed villain who's trying to reclaim his glory days" thing going on.

Anyway, my point was that he's not a Big Bad in any of these episodes.

He was a bad guy/threat and so people can say 'oh yeah, Spike was really an enjoyable bad guy in those episodes', which is what the poster was asking. 😉

Actually, the poll asks whether we like Spike as a "Big Bad" or as a "champion". And as I said, Spike was only a Big Bad in the first half of season 2, and he was only a GREAT Big Bad for one episode, 'School Hard'. On the other hand, he had a lot of time as a champion - from 'Chosen', through season 5 of Angel, and on to the comics. So, yeah - Spike was better as a champion than as a Big Bad, IMO.

If the question is "do you like Spike better when he's good or when he's evil", I'd say that Spike is usually at his best (as a character) when he's somewhere in the middle. He's much more interesting that way.

He worked with/aided Big Bad Adam for his own reasons- so that puts him on the same footing as Faith in S3.

Hardly. Faith was a great villain in her own right, and there was a huge fight devoted solely to defeating her in 3x21, and in many ways she was more central to the story than the Mayor. Spike, meanwhile, was just a pathetic henchman for Adam, there to make things more fun because Adam was boring.

Every other time he's an antagonist working with other evil characters- Drusilla or Harmony-

As I said, side-villain.

or doing evil things on his own (demon eggs, attempted rape) and ends up hurting another main character.

He wasn't a villain there, though. He did evil things, but he was a main character at that point, a protagonist, not an antagonist. He wasn't much more immoral than some of the scoobies were at various points in season 6.

And whilst he was a really great bad guy he wasn't really a good 'champion', certainly you could point to many, many moments in S7 where he is more hindrance than help- secretly killing people, the trigger, etc.

He's not a champion until 'Chosen', though. Season 7 is still part of his journey toward champion-ness. The show pretty much spells it out in season 5 of 'Angel'.

 

[LeeJones41]

He was an interesting character, whether he was good or evil. Of course, I'm only judging him by Seasons 2-7 and his one season on "Angel". I've never read the comics.

 

[Slayerofslayers]

I liked his redemption arc and how he came to care about Dawn and Buffy. However, I do agree that I think that his character seemed to lose its quality in the later seasons. I like him best when he was evil in season two through season four or when they show him in flashbacks before he came to Sunnydale. He was a soulless vampire during those times but still had sides to him that made him a compelling character, such as his devotion to Drusilla, his concern for his mother, getting along with Joyce, etc. I didn't like Spuffy and wished it didn't happen. So I can enjoy Spike in seasons five through seven most of the time but it isn't nearly as good as when he was a villian during the early seasons and flashbacks. When Spike and Dru reunited in "Crush" I was excited because I thought that at least for a few episodes he would go back to being an antagonist with her which would have been interesting but unfortunately it didn't happen. So I vote that Spike is better as a big bad.

 

[thetopher]

He's TOO moral, with not enough conflict.

Yeah, he's been like that since 'Get It Done' really, not enough conflict. But I'd never say he was TOO moral back then lol.

The writers got all that morality stuff out of the way quickly for the sake of Spuffy. Spike only really got any depth again over on Angel, but even that didn't last.

The only exceptions are 'Harsh Light of Day' and 'In the Dark', and even then he's got that comedic "pathetic failed villain who's trying to reclaim his glory days" thing going on.

When he was trying to kill Buffy or torture Angel to death?
Yeah, very comedic.

There is a difference between fan favorite/returning bad guy and comedy villain. Ethan Rayne was a FUN villain but he was also deadly when he appeared.

Anyway, my point was that he's not a Big Bad in any of these episodes.

He was still a villain, and not a very comedic one- he was a returning bad guy, again like Ethan Rayne or Faith in S4 or whatever.

Actually, the poll asks whether we like Spike as a "Big Bad" or as a "champion".

But read the rest of the post the poster expanded on that and asked overall better as good or evil.

He wasn't much more immoral than some of the scoobies were at various points in season 6.

Agree to disagree I guess. In 'As You Were' Spike was a straight-up villain, no real comedy aspect. The only person who was more villainous that season was Dark Willow.

 

[Mr Trick]

I voted Spike as evil. But what made him such a good character to start with was the human qualites which went along side his evil ones. Once they decided that Spike was going to be a show regular then they probably had to go in the direction they did with him. I'm glad they did it and S5 Spike is some of the best ever.

 

[Guy]

Yeah, he's been like that since 'Get It Done' really, not enough conflict. But I'd never say he was TOO moral back then lol.

The writers got all that morality stuff out of the way quickly for the sake of Spuffy. Spike only really got any depth again over on Angel, but even that didn't last.

Yeah, we're clearly never going to agree on this. Suffice it to say, I think that Spike was more complicated and interesting than ever during the Spuffy years (specifically seasons 5 & 6, although season 7 had some INCREDIBLE moments too).

When he was trying to kill Buffy or torture Angel to death?
Yeah, very comedic.

There is a difference between fan favorite/returning bad guy and comedy villain. Ethan Rayne was a FUN villain but he was also deadly when he appeared.

If your point is that Spike was a Big Bad during 'Harsh Light of Day' and 'In the Dark', then I disagree, for reasons I've already stated. If your point is that he's a good villain in those episodes, then I agree.

But read the rest of the post the poster expanded on that and asked overall better as good or evil.

Well, there's a contradiction there - the title and the poll asks whether we prefer Spike as a Big Bad or as a Champion (god, I hate that word), but the opening post asks whether we prefer Spike as good or evil.

My answers are:

- I prefer Spike as a champion over a Big Bad, for reasons I've already stated.
- I think that Spike is at his best when he was neither fully good nor fully bad - especially in season 5 & 6.

Agree to disagree I guess. In 'As You Were' Spike was a straight-up villain, no real comedy aspect. The only person who was more villainous that season was Dark Willow.

No, not really. He just kept a bunch of eggs for someone. He didn't really know how dangerous they were, or even how to keep them from hatching prematurely. He wasn't any more evil there than, say, Willy the Snitch. Incompetent, yeah, but not really evil.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, we're clearly never going to agree on this.

Clearly, but then I didn't question/comment on your opinions on Spike/Spuffy. *shrug*

If your point is that Spike was a Big Bad during 'Harsh Light of Day' and 'In the Dark', then I disagree,

I simply stated that Spike was more than a comedic villain in those episodes, he was a straight-up evil, trying to kill people bad guy. And that's just the very start of S4, there are many more examples later on in S4 and 5 where he was doing evil, villainous stuff.

Well, there's a contradiction there - the title and the poll asks whether we prefer Spike as a Big Bad or as a Champion

I honestly never considered Spike a true 'Champion' (crap title really). Maybe in 'Chosen'? So...1 episode maybe.

No, not really. He just kept a bunch of eggs for someone.

No he just claimed that but he was clearly lying- he was a dealer.
He was 'The Doctor' that Riley was searching for. Incompetent AND evil. Still a villain. Kinda the point of the episode. Buffy is having a 'thing' with an evil vampire.

 

[Guy]

I simply stated that Spike was more than a comedic villain in those episodes, he was a straight-up evil, trying to kill people bad guy. And that's just the very start of S4, there are many more examples later on in S4 and 5 where he was doing evil, villainous stuff.

Then I agree.

I honestly never considered Spike a true 'Champion' (crap title really). Maybe in 'Chosen'? So...1 episode maybe.

1) RIGHT?! "Champion" is such a lame title... And I hate how they use it endlessly on 'Angel'...
2) Spike was a champion from 'Chosen' onward, which includes all of season 5 of AtS, and all the comics. So, a lot longer than the half-season in which he was a Big Bad.

No he just claimed that but he was clearly lying- he was a dealer.
He was 'The Doctor' that Riley was searching for.

Was he, though? Sure, he's an immoral creature, yeah, but we never got any concrete confirmation that he WASN'T just keeping the eggs for someone. Riley didn't have any proof, and Spike always denied being the doctor.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Was he, though? Sure, he's an immoral creature, yeah, but we never got any concrete confirmation that he WASN'T just keeping the eggs for someone. Riley didn't have any proof, and Spike always denied being the doctor.

I always thought that Spike was "the doctor" that Riley was looking for even though the events of that episode were never brought up again. Either that or Riley was looking for this guy:

Or this guy:

Or, considering the timing of that episode, this guy:

 

[Guy]

I always thought that Spike was "the doctor" that Riley was looking for even though the events of that episode were never brought up again.

Buffy and Riley jumped to the same conclusion, but there's really no proof of it. And I think it makes much more sense that Spike was really just keeping the eggs for some friend:
Why would he be keeping the eggs for his evil plan in the same crypt in which he and Buffy often have sex? Spike is sloppy and rash, but he's not THAT stupid - at least not when he's not continuously drunk, like in 'Lovers Walk'. He knows Buffy would see the eggs eventually if they're there, so if those eggs were really for some evil plan, why wouldn't he just keep them somewhere else?
Also, hatching evil plans like that really wasn't Spike's style in season 6. Sure, he's evil, but he's also trying to get Buffy to love him, so why would he hatch such a blatantly evil plan? How would that help him to get Buffy? Spike did evil things in season 6, but he never pulled such big, non-Bufy-related plans like that.