Buffy VS Faith - Who was the better slayer?

[DeadlyDuo]

1. I did not ask for nor want an irrelevant history lesson.

2. You miss the point of my post. Faith did not give a crap about the fact that she killed a guy, she thought she could do whatever the hell she liked. It was a slippery slope. Killing Finch was when her turn to darkness began.

 

[Faith 2019]

1. I did not ask for nor want an irrelevant history lesson.

2. You miss the point of my post. Faith did not give a crap about the fact that she killed a guy, she thought she could do whatever the hell she liked. It was a slippery slope. Killing Finch was when her turn to darkness began.

If Buffy killed Finch, would we say Buffy was entering into darkness. If it was Buffy, what to do then, have Buffy go to church on Sundays. Do a great deal of soul searching. Always feeling guilty, and so much hatefulness against herself. If that happened, the fans would stop watching the show.

 

[thrasherpix]

If Buffy killed Finch, would we say Buffy was entering into darkness. If it was Buffy, what to do then, have Buffy go to church on Sundays. Do a great deal of soul searching. Always feeling guilty, and so much hatefulness against herself. If that happened, the fans would stop watching the show.

You make it sound like that would be the only thing Buffy could do when it's not. Besides, I think season 6 proves many are just fine with Buffy constantly hating herself and feeling guilty. Or for murder, Willow (and Faith, even Anya for a change, though strangely not much for Jonathan) in season 7 (many hate season 7, but few list Willow as the reason why).

A lot of us don't see Faith as a murderer for her accidental killing of Finch, it was how she acted after it. And it's not just her, but how others acted which pushed Faith away, so it's not all "her fault." Her joining the Mayor was where she crossed the line...and only in killing for him did she actually become a murderer in the eyes of many.

There's also a lot of fan division over Faith's redemption arc, particularly when Buffy and Faith confront each other in Angel season 1. Many of us did not like how Buffy reacted, while others thought she was more than justified (though plenty like me who thought Buffy was out of line could still understand why she was acting that way).

 

[one eyed chicklet]

You also forgot that Faith shot Angle with a poison arrow that needed the blood of a slayer to cure. That was the reason why Buffy confronted Faith so she can drag her to Angle so he can bite and drain her blood until she was dead. True, Faith was not that good to the males of the series. True, the relationship between Buffy and Faith got more toxic as both women were not willing to be equal to each other. Yes, she killed a white male she thought was not a human. It was a very lame killing. Faith accepted it as a accident as a part of the way she deals with vamps and demons. Buffy on the other hand, wanted a good long girls only heart to heart talk about the death. When Faith rejected that social bonding, their friendship became worse.

If I was a slayer, and by accident I killed a real man -- I would have done the same as Faith. There is always civilians killed in conflicts with two parties in a conflict. How she dealt with the death was in my judgment the only best result. True, she could have called the police and confessed the the death. Got arrested, pleaded guilty and gone to a woman's prison. But, since she is a slayer, a vamp or a demon could have killed countless humans during her decades in prison. Only after her death, would another slayer would have called to confront and kill vamps and demons. Or, dealing with her guilt, she could have asked Buffy to kill her so another slayer could be called. So, there was suicide to take care of her guilt -- something that is irrational and would not have been accepted with the fans. She could have gone to prison for decades, and left Buffy alone to kill vamps and demons alone. And if Buffy was killed, there would not have been a active slayer to kill vamps and demons. So, there was only one rational answer to the crime -- cover up the crime and move on. Something that Buffy and the scoobies were willing to accept. Faith accepting the death was not a ideal but it was rational. I am not a idealist, but I am a rationalist. And time and time again, idealism classes with rationalism.

I'm so confused,why does it matter that they are both women or that Faith killed a white male? The problem is she killed a person and didn't care.
Faith could have at least felt guilty and talked about it.

 

[Faith 2019]

I'm so confused,why does it matter that they are both women or that Faith killed a white male? The problem is she killed a person and didn't care.
Faith could have at least felt guilty and talked about it.

If they decided to make another Twilight movie in the Twilight Saga, and they decided to kill off Kristen Stewart as Bella -- would not the fans have any feelings for the death of a vampire? And the person that killed her was Buffy Summers, and she just went along with her life without a care in the world. The Buffy fans would say, everything is fine and the Twilight Saga fans would be pissed off. With Buffy fans, killing vampires or demons, they have become no big deal. I see Faith killing a human, a vampire or a demon -- as being equal to each other.

 

[one eyed chicklet]

If they decided to make another Twilight movie in the Twilight Saga, and they decided to kill off Kristen Stewart as Bella -- would not the fans have any feelings for the death of a vampire? And the person that killed her was Buffy Summers, and she just went along with her life without a care in the world. The Buffy fans would say, everything is fine and the Twilight Saga fans would be pissed off. With Buffy fans, killing vampires or demons, they have become no big deal. I see Faith killing a human, a vampire or a demon -- as being equal to each other.

I literally have no idea what you are talking about. We aren't talking about a Buffy x Twilight crossover, we are talking about Faith who killed a human when she shouldn't have. All vampires in the Buffyverse are inherently evil- I don't know how this works in Twilight.

 

[Faith 2019]

I literally have no idea what you are talking about. We aren't talking about a Buffy x Twilight crossover, we are talking about Faith who killed a human when she shouldn't have. All vampires in the Buffyverse are inherently evil- I don't know how this works in Twilight.

Yes, in Buffyverse all vampires are inherently evil. Killing them is not a big deal, in fact, the fans would become very bored if they were not killed. If I was around during the Roman Empire, and I was a pagan, I would find killing Christians would be entertaining too. Yes, she killed a human and that was wrong. But, Faith is a rationalist and Buffy is a idealist. It is not ideal to kill a human being, if you thought of him as a vampire. In Buffyverse, it is rational to kill vampires and demons and it is also idealism to kill them too. But let me make this very clear, Faith is not a idealist.

 

[one eyed chicklet]

Yes, in Buffyverse all vampires are inherently evil. Killing them is not a big deal, in fact, the fans would become very bored if they were not killed. If I was around during the Roman Empire, and I was a pagan, I would find killing Christians would be entertaining too. Yes, she killed a human and that was wrong. But, Faith is a rationalist and Buffy is a idealist. It is not ideal to kill a human being, if you thought of him as a vampire. In Buffyverse, it is rational to kill vampires and demons and it is also idealism to kill them too. But let me make this very clear, Faith is not a idealist.

I am really not understanding your arguments. Vampires are literal sociopaths that eat people, Christians are people so they are not inherently evil. Faith killed the guy by accident didn't feel guilty and started working for the mayor. I'm pretty sure if you killed a person by accident you would feel bad about it.

 

[Faith 2019]

I am really not understanding your arguments. Vampires are literal sociopaths that eat people, Christians are people so they are not inherently evil. Faith killed the guy by accident didn't feel guilty and started working for the mayor. I'm pretty sure if you killed a person by accident you would feel bad about it.

If I killed someone by accident, say by example I had the flu and a old person got the flu from me and died. And I understood that as a fact, and understood that person when he or she was alive -- I should feel guilty about the persons death. But I am sure during your lifetime, you had the flu or decide not to get the yearly flu shot. In theory, you could have got the flue, and passed on the flu to someone else that gave the flu to another person and died of that flu. People die from the flu all the time, and nobody is charged with a crime of given someone a flu that caused a death. Is not getting a yearly flu shot not inherently evil?

Just because it is not a crime, given someone the flu that cause the death of a person is still a death of a person.

 

[nightshade]

Let's get back to the original question, not hypothetical situations.

 

[one eyed chicklet]

If I killed someone by accident, say by example I had the flu and a old person got the flu from me and died. And I understood that as a fact, and understood that person when he or she was alive -- I should feel guilty about the persons death. But I am sure during your lifetime, you had the flu or decide not to get the yearly flu shot. In theory, you could have got the flue, and passed on the flu to someone else that gave the flu to another person and died of that flu. People die from the flu all the time, and nobody is charged with a crime of given someone a flu that caused a death. Is not getting a yearly flu shot not inherently evil?

Just because it is not a crime, given someone the flu that cause the death of a person is still a death of a person.

Faith shoved a stake through the mans heart, she didn't give him a flu bug. It really seems like you're grasping at straws now.

 

[Faith 2019]

I'm pretty sure Faith shoved a stake through the mans heart, she didn't give him a flu bug. It really seems like you're grasping at straws now.

The only difference, Buffy stabbed a human by accident because she believed him to be a vampire. Yes, that is a crime and a crime were she can go to prison. If she had the flu and he died of the flue, that is not a crime and she can do whatever she wants. If I get drunk, get in a car and it kills a person, that is a crime. If I have a medical problem, and I am in a car and it kills a person, that is not a crime. Justice says I should feel different with the two different ways to kill a person with a car.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

If I get drunk, get in a car and it kills a person, that is a crime. If I have a medical problem, and I am in a car and it kills a person, that is not a crime. Justice says I should feel different with the two different ways to kill a person with a car.

You would still feel guilty about it whether you were legally liable or not.

We have two examples in-show where Buffy "accidentally kills someone". The first is in Ted with Ted, the 2nd is in Dead Things with Katrina. Even though Spike was telling Buffy that Katrina was basically a blip out of all the people she had saved, Buffy still felt bad that she accidentally killed someone. Whilst fans agree that Spike was right that Buffy shouldn't go to prison over an accident (especially because she's the only active slayer at that point in time with Faith in prison), Buffy still feels bad about it. In Ted, Buffy was upset that she killed Ted by kicking him down the stairs (even though he was abusive to her) because he was a human.

Faith accidentally killed Finch and did not give a damn. That kill happy attitude is dangerous. Nobody is say that Faith has to torture herself with guilt for all eternity but she should be feeling guilt and remorse in the immediate aftermath. Her redemption arc is based on the fact she wants to redeem herself for her past misdeeds. To say she shouldn't feel bad is to take away her culpability and agency.

Slayers have power that regular people do not. "With great power comes great responsibility." Faith was already abusing that power with her "Take. Want. Have" mantra, if Faith has no respect for human life, then what's to stop her killing innocent civilians just for getting in her way or because someone annoys her etc.

Willow feels bad for killing Warren even though he killed Tara, Jonathan feels guilt over Katrina's death even though the trio never intended for her to die. The one person who doesn't feel bad about Katrina's death is Warren.

Faith should feel regret for her actions, even if they were an accident. She doesn't which means she's no better than Warren during Season 3.

 

[Faith 2019]

Regret is a double edge sword. If you see regret with a single person, that is accepted behavior. If you see regret with people within a community, more so if they are military personal, that is not accepted as accepted behavior. During the Vietnam War, 20% of the military personal were on some type of illegal drug use. There was also a high level of abuse of drinking as well. As a American, I am told to show regret for the Vietnam War. With World War II, I can be shown stock images of bombing German cities were millions were killed. As a American, and I talk to a woman from Vietnam, I am suppose to show regret with bombing her country. On the other hand, if I see a German woman, she should be thanking me for defeating her country.

When I go to a bookstore, and look at the military history section. I can see countless new and old books dealing with World War II. With books dealing with the Vietnam War, they may be none or only a small selection. Even that World War II during the American point of view was from the 1940's, it was a shorter war then the Vietnam War that happened during the 1960's. Even that there are more adults with memories during the 1960's then the 1940's that are still alive today.

Regrets my deal Watson are very unpopular and are thought of being very negative. If Faith did show regrets for killing a human, the fans would find her character to be very weak and uninteresting. If she is uninteresting as a second slayer, the fans would turned off the show and move the show to be on the list to be cancelled. On the other hand, if Faith did not show any regrets, the fans would be more interested in her character development and would be more interested in watching the show.

Like everything with entertainment of television, do we really want to be cancelled. Faith had to play the part of a evil bitch.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

If Faith did show regrets for killing a human, the fans would find her character to be very weak and uninteresting. If she is uninteresting as a second slayer, the fans would turned off the show and move the show to be on the list to be cancelled. On the other hand, if Faith did not show any regrets, the fans would be more interested in her character development and would be more interested in watching the show.

By that logic, Faith's redemption arc would be an absolute failure and she should've been killed off at the end of Season 3 so she could die "Interesting". Faith would not make or break the show. It continued fine before she showed up (Seasons 1-2) and it continued fine after she left (Seasons 4-6). Also Faith regretting her actions actually makes her more interesting than if she showed no regrets at all for her behaviour. Kennedy is the perfect example of this point. Kennedy is an obnoxious brat that shows zero regrets for her behaviour despite the fact that not only did it contribute to another potential's suicide but she also played a key role in getting Buffy kicked out her own house. Does Kennedy regret her behaviour in any way? Nope. Do the audience love her for it and find her interesting? Absolutely not. Is Kennedy one of the most hated characters in the Buffyverse? Definitely.

 

[Faith 2019]

By that logic, Faith's redemption arc would be an absolute failure and she should've been killed off at the end of Season 3 so she could die "Interesting". Faith would not make or break the show. It continued fine before she showed up (Seasons 1-2) and it continued fine after she left (Seasons 4-6). Also Faith regretting her actions actually makes her more interesting than if she showed no regrets at all for her behaviour. Kennedy is the perfect example of this point. Kennedy is an obnoxious brat that shows zero regrets for her behaviour despite the fact that not only did it contribute to another potential's suicide but she also played a key role in getting Buffy kicked out her own house. Does Kennedy regret her behaviour in any way? Nope. Do the audience love her for it and find her interesting? Absolutely not. Is Kennedy one of the most hated characters in the Buffyverse? Definitely.

For cultural reasons, men can be equal to each other, in books, fiction, nonfiction, and movies. When it comes with women, they cannot be equal to each other and develop there own personalities or develop their fictional characters like Buffy and Faith. As a woman, and with women's culture within their own social groups. Take for the example the career of the Olson twins, they were cute and sweet as preteen girls. When they became adults, their body image was short, small frame females, with small breasts. If they were tall women, sexy looking women with big breasts -- their careers would have been different. If they were 38DD, people would be asking who had the bigger breasts. Since they are both A cups, people would be asking, who is smaller than the other.

Society hates equals. If Buffy and Faith was always the same, and their character development was equal to each other. People would not be debating who is the stronger slayer, they would be debating who is the weaker slayer. And when two women are equal, your asking, who is the weaker of the two. And society hates weakness.

I have mixed feelings about Kennedy

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Faith murders one demon and two white men after Finch, and she tries to kill Xander, but she does not discriminate on gender. She lets Wilkins place a hit on Willow, wants to cut Willow up and beats up both Willow and Cordelia.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

@Faith 2019 Why do you keep going off on tangents about random things rather than trying to argue your point directly? The Olson twins and the size of their breasts have nothing to do with Buffy or Faith. The Vietnam war has nothing to do with Buffy and Faith. The flu bug has nothing to do with Buffy or Faith.

Your general point seems to be that Faith shouldn't feel bad about killing Finch because it was an accident whereas other people disagree and think that she should feel some remorse for taking a life even if it wasn't intentional. Obviously you're team Faith but that doesn't mean she's above a moral code.

 

[Faith 2019]

@Faith 2019 Why do you keep going off on tangents about random things rather than trying to argue your point directly? The Olson twins and the size of their breasts have nothing to do with Buffy or Faith. The Vietnam war has nothing to do with Buffy and Faith. The flu bug has nothing to do with Buffy or Faith.

Your general point seems to be that Faith shouldn't feel bad about killing Finch because it was an accident whereas other people disagree and think that she should feel some remorse for taking a life even if it wasn't intentional. Obviously you're team Faith but that doesn't mean she's above a moral code.

As a atheist, I do not really support morality -- its to Christian. Yes, there is morality, but morality is relative, and it is the culture we are currently within our current society. If you are dealing with a single issue case of a single person, you have to understand your culture and history as guide to base a moral judgment

 

[one eyed chicklet]

As a atheist, I do not really support morality -- its to Christian. Yes, there is morality, but morality is relative, and it is the culture we are currently within our current society. If you are dealing with a single issue case of a single person, you have to understand your culture and history as guide to base a moral judgment

Yes, but we are not talking about a war or indirectly killing someone. She took a stake, and pushed it through a man's heart. Yes, it was a mistake and I don't blame her for it, but her reaction was not healthy, which contributes to why Buffy is stronger than her. Buffy's reaction to killing someone is feeling the guilt and taking responsibility for her actions without hurting others, Faith was just about the opposite.