Did Angel leaving make BTVS a better or worse show?

[Antho]

I do some research. Here it’s the average US rating by seasons :
1 : 3,7
2 : 5,2
3 : 5,3
4 : 5,1
5 : 4,6
6 : 4,3
7 : 3,9

We can remark that the seasons where Angel was there do have the best ratings. I also note that season 4 that is considerated nowadays by a lot of fans the worst seasons of the series is third on the ratings just behind seasons 2-3.

I look now to the ratings of the episode he appears on season he isn’t there anymore ( as a principal character) :

Season 4 Pangs : 5,9 millions. The sixth best rating of the season, just behind :
-The season premiere « the freshman » : 6,79
- « Fear itself » 5,98
- « Wild at heart » 6,51
- « hush » 5,97
- « A new man » 6,02
Pangs has better ratings than « something blue, the Faith episodes, restless… ». Angel doesn’t do much in that episode but I’m sure the Add they did around his comeback can explain the ratings.
On season 4 he appears also in Yoko factor : 4,55. I notice that the ratings of season 4 10 finals episodes are very low compared to the ratings of the beginning episodes. Still Yoko factor managed to have one of the best ratings amongs the finals episodes.

Seasons 5 :
Angel appears on « fool for love » 5,66 which is again the sixth best ratings of the season, just behind :
- The season premiere « Buffy vs Dracula » : 5,83
-« real me » 6,17
- « no place like home » 6,41
- « family » 6,19
- « the body » 5,97

He is also on « Forever » 4,29. The worst audience of the season ! But can we related this to Angel ? He is in one scene and in my opinion this episode suffers to be behind « the body » which can explain that bad ratings.

Angel isn’t on season 6 !

And on season 7 he is on the final episode « chosen » 4,87 which is the sevenths best ratings of that season, just behind :
- « lessons » 4,99
- « beneath you » 4,97
- « same time same place » 4,9
- « help » 5,04
- « Selfless » 5,02
- « sleeper » 5,03
I do think the return of Angel for the final brings back the most nostalgic viewers of the show. It did have an impact in my eyes. Plus the only episode he is in has a ratings of 4,87 in a season where the average ratings is 3,9 and the ratings of several last episodes were under 4 millions.

I thought that having a look at the ratings can be interesting 🤔. Now everyone can have an opinion 😌.


Sources : List of Buffy the Vampire Slayer episodes - Wikipedia

 

[KaitKat]

What broke up Buffy and Angel was Angel: The Series.

I think I remember reading that Angel was originally going to permanently die at the end of the Becoming so I wouldn’t say Angel the Series broke Bangel up as it was written to be a first love, an epic one at that, but it was never supposed to last forever. Joss got the idea to do AtS after I Only Have Eyes for You and to me it looks like they had no idea what to do with his character in Season 3 since his story with Buffy is over to the point that even the writers a mocking the melodrama and the breaking up and getting back together. When he moved to his own show he got to develop as a character and be more that Buffy’s mysterious love interest, but without AtS he would just be dead.

 

[BibliophileAnn]

I do some research. Here it’s the average US rating by seasons :
1 : 3,7
2 : 5,2
3 : 5,3
4 : 5,1
5 : 4,6
6 : 4,3
7 : 3,9

We can remark that the seasons where Angel was there do have the best ratings. I also note that season 4 that is considerated nowadays by a lot of fans the worst seasons of the series is third on the ratings just behind seasons 2-3.

I look now to the ratings of the episode he appears on season he isn’t there anymore ( as a principal character) :

Season 4 Pangs : 5,9 millions. The sixth best rating of the season, just behind :
-The season premiere « the freshman » : 6,79
- « Fear itself » 5,98
- « Wild at heart » 6,51
- « hush » 5,97
- « A new man » 6,02
Pangs has better ratings than « something blue, the Faith episodes, restless… ». Angel doesn’t do much in that episode but I’m sure the Add they did around his comeback can explain the ratings.
On season 4 he appears also in Yoko factor : 4,55. I notice that the ratings of season 4 10 finals episodes are very low compared to the ratings of the beginning episodes. Still Yoko factor managed to have one of the best ratings amongs the finals episodes.

Seasons 5 :
Angel appears on « fool for love » 5,66 which is again the sixth best ratings of the season, just behind :
- The season premiere « Buffy vs Dracula » : 5,83
-« real me » 6,17
- « no place like home » 6,41
- « family » 6,19
- « the body » 5,97

He is also on « Forever » 4,29. The worst audience of the season ! But can we related this to Angel ? He is in one scene and in my opinion this episode suffers to be behind « the body » which can explain that bad ratings.

Angel isn’t on season 6 !

And on season 7 he is on the final episode « chosen » 4,87 which is the sevenths best ratings of that season, just behind :
- « lessons » 4,99
- « beneath you » 4,97
- « same time same place » 4,9
- « help » 5,04
- « Selfless » 5,02
- « sleeper » 5,03
I do think the return of Angel for the final brings back the most nostalgic viewers of the show. It did have an impact in my eyes. Plus the only episode he is in has a ratings of 4,87 in a season where the average ratings is 3,9 and the ratings of several last episodes were under 4 millions.

I thought that having a look at the ratings can be interesting 🤔. Now everyone can have an opinion 😌.


Sources : List of Buffy the Vampire Slayer episodes - Wikipedia

Yes these figures are eye opening. Good research.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Wikipedia - glad you didn't say it was a fact check.
Usually you can go to Wikipedia to find a notion of what was then go elsewhere to find the facts of said subject.

And about that Angel guy, he argued with Spike on if it was Astronauts or Cavemen and got it wrong, nuff said!

 

[Antho]

Wikipedia - glad you didn't say it was a fact check.
Usually you can go to Wikipedia to find a notion of what was then go elsewhere to find the facts of said subject.

Well I choose to have confidence in Wikipedia. 😌They obtained thoses figure by the Audience measurement performed by Nielsen Media Research. However feel free to do your own research 🧐 maybe you fill wind some others sources.

 

[Stake fodder]

Season 4 Pangs : 5,9 millions. The sixth best rating of the season....

On season 4 he appears also in Yoko factor : 4,55. I notice that the ratings of season 4 10 finals episodes are very low compared to the ratings of the beginning episodes. Still Yoko factor managed to have one of the best ratings amongs the finals episodes.

Seasons 5 :
Angel appears on « fool for love » 5,66 which is again the sixth best ratings of the season....

He is also on « Forever » 4,29. The worst audience of the season ! But can we related this to Angel ? He is in one scene and in my opinion this episode suffers to be behind « the body » which can explain that bad ratings.

Good research! This inspired me to check the dates that these crossover episodes aired. February, May, and November are "sweeps" times, in which ratings are used to set prices for advertising spots, so TV shows tend to air episodes they expect to be popular. And I find that three of the four episodes you mention above aired in May and November (Forever aired in April). So that also indicates that Angel's visits were expected to draw a larger audience!

For AtS, Sanctuary also aired in May and IWRY in November. I was too lazy to check any other crossovers.🙂

 

[Ethan Reigns]

What would they have done with Angel past season 3? They had already done the doomed romance and a doomed romance where the parties involved stay together is asking for a level of frustration that would be intolerable for the viewers and characters alike. We did get the occasional crossover and that seemed to go off alright but more of Angel would have been an intrusion into the life of someone (Buffy) whose job was to grow up and grow out of fixations like that. Not that many people end up marrying their childhood sweethearts and we would miss out on whatever came later. People who have had few or only one partner are often confused about what constitutes normal behaviour for a partner of the opposite sex versus peculiarities of the partner they have, so they would not know what everyone else could see. Marrying the childhood sweetheart leads to ambiguities each partner can't resolve - is that just him or is every guy like that?

We ended up with The Spike Show Featuring Buffy but this was still better than what we would have gotten with Angel still there.

Full disclosure: I'm not much of a shipper. If I had to choose, I would lean slightly in the direction of Spuffy because that story had legs - it still had room to grow whereas Bangel was already fully played out by circumstances that ended in Season 3. From a dramatic standpoint, there was still some mileage in Spuffy but Bangel, even if it was less toxic, had been completed.

 

[Btvs fan]

Good research! This inspired me to check the dates that these crossover episodes aired. February, May, and November are "sweeps" times, in which ratings are used to set prices for advertising spots, so TV shows tend to air episodes they expect to be popular. And I find that three of the four episodes you mention above aired in May and November (Forever aired in April). So that also indicates that Angel's visits were expected to draw a larger audience!

For AtS, Sanctuary also aired in May and IWRY in November. I was too lazy to check any other crossovers.🙂

I'd be interested in the ratings for In the Dark as that Crossover featured both Spike and Oz, 2 generally accepted popular characters of the show.
5by5 and Sanctuary for Faith of course

@Antho mentioned FFL but Darla was also a Crossover episode featuring Spike in return

Willow was in Disharmony and No Place like Plrtzz glrb

You had Faith and Willow was in Orpheus S4 too
Spike in S5, I'd love to know the ratings for season

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I think this fixation on the number of viewers of various episodes gets things reversed - a better episode may make for more viewers but more viewers do not make for a better episode. The viewers tune into a show and get marked as viewers in certain electronically-conducted polls before they watch it - the number of viewers is more a gauge of how anticipated the episode is rather than whether it is any good. And how can anyone say the episode was bad if they didn't watch it? I also don't get the large variation in numbers in these polls - do hundreds of thousands of people only watch some episodes and not others?

 

[Btvs fan]

I think this fixation on the number of viewers of various episodes gets things reversed - a better episode may make for more viewers but more viewers do not make for a better episode. The viewers tune into a show and get marked as viewers in certain electronically-conducted polls before they watch it - the number of viewers is more a gauge of how anticipated the episode is rather than whether it is any good. And how can anyone say the episode was bad if they didn't watch it? I also don't get the large variation in numbers in these polls - do hundreds of thousands of people only watch some episodes and not others?

I agree. Porn movies make millions each year, I doubt anyone can argue they're Oscar worthy based on that

 

[The Bronze]

I agree. Porn movies make millions each year, I doubt anyone can argue they're Oscar worthy based on that

Might liven up the next Oscars

 

[KaitKat]

No doubt there were viewers that tuned in just to see Angel, but he also wasn’t overused post Season 3. He wasn’t around enough for viewers to get tired of the melodrama.

As others have pointed out, I’m sure episodes on Angel that included Faith, Willow, or Spike were well rated because they all have their fans that will tune in to watch them.

 

[Antho]

I also don't get the large variation in numbers in these polls - do hundreds of thousands of people only watch some episodes and not others?

Casual viewers. And people have life ^^. They work, they get out with friends, they see the family…In France Buffy was programmed the Saturday Night. I wasn’t every week end the Saturday night in front of the TV.

 

[Stake fodder]

I also don't get the large variation in numbers in these polls - do hundreds of thousands of people only watch some episodes and not others?

What @Antho said, and also, it might indicate viewers of AtS who watched only his episodes on BtVS, and vice versa.

 

[CHK DeWilSon]

Again, it's all about hindsight.

At the time, I absolutely HATED it, and felt Angel's lost definitely at the start of series 4 and for most of that series especially because I just didn't connect to Riley or like him much as a character.
But watching Angel on his show and seeing his growth as a character, change my thinking and series 5 of BTVS was when I could enjoy both characters separately on their individual shows and not wish for them so badly to still be together.

And now, I definitely feel it was the best for Angel to move to his own show because the development he certainly needed to evaluate his character as a separate person and not just as a love interest which is kind of what stagnated his development of his characteristics on Buffy.

I am glad that Angel had some crossovers in BTVS for the other seasons to still be connected to the world of Sunnydale, I just wish that some of the planned Buffy appearances post series/season 1 had materialised from SMG. Sadly not to be.

 

[burrunjor]

Yes and no.

Yes in that as others have pointed out, it gave Angel a chance to shine on his own and become an iconic character in his own right. It also allowed the likes of Wesley and Cordelia, and Spike and Anya a chance in the limelight as now there was two shows for all of these characters to be spread out across.

Also there wasn't anywhere for Bangel to go at that point anyway. For all the reasons Angel himself pointed out, they couldn't have a happy ending, and having him go evil again would have been a tedious rerun of season 2.

Also I think Angel is in danger of undermining Buffy, as he is another super strong amazing fighter. At the very least he can make her fights less dynamic and easier, so it is best to keep them in two separate cities.

However at the same time Angel did bring a certain dynamic to the show, that obviously the writers missed. The fact that his first replacement, Riley was awful didn't help and so they tried to replicate it with Spike. Season 6 and especially season 7 in my opinion were just attempts to recapture the Bangel storyline with a new character and they fell flat.

I think it would have been better if they had just moved on from Angel, but ultimately he cast a big shadow over the show which it couldn't escape from. To be fair the same thing happened on his show in regards to Buffy. Cangel was an inferior attempt to recapture the Buffy/Angel romance just like Spuffy, but it was obviously the worst of all of them, due to the creepy love triangle LOL.

 

[Antho]

ANGEL USA ratings by season :
1 : 4,8
2 : 4,2
3 : 4,2
4 : 3,65
5 : 3,97

Looking now at the crossovers featuring Buffy characters :

- In the dark : 5,58. Sevenths best rating of the season 1 ( behind City of 7,47, Lonely hearts 5,82, Sense and sensitivity 5,72, I will Remember you 6,5, Expecting 6,62, Parting gift 5,64). That episode is the second best ratings among the crossover of that season 1. Aired on October.

- I will remember you : 6,5. Best ratings for the crossover. Third best ratings of season 1. Only city of and expecting did better ratings. Aired on November.

-Five by five/Sanctuary : 4,83/5,29. Worst ratings among the crossover of season 1. Five by five has one of the worst ratings of the season, a lot of episode have better ratings. Sanctuary is the eleventh best ratings of the season. Aired on April/May.

- Judgement : 6,09. I don’t think that one scene with Faith at the end as an impact on the ratings. Especially that her presence was a surprise as Eliza was credited at the generic end. Best ratings of season 2. Aired on September.

-Darla : 5,54. Third best rating of season 2. Behind judgement 6,09 and guise will be guide 6,05. Aired on November.

-The trial, Réunion, redefinition : for the presence of Drusilla. 4,67-4,66-4,11. It is on the line of the audiences of that season 2. Aired on November/ December.

- Disharmony : 3,64. Poor harmony. Worst ratings of season 2. Aired on
April.

- S2 final episode : that Willow scene. 4,84. Aired on may.


-S4 épisode Salvage : 3,72. Only the twelfth best ratings of the season 4. Behind half of the season. Aired on March.

- Release : 3,91. It gains one place compared to Salvage as it is only the eleventh best ratings of season 4. Aired on March.

- Orpheus : 3,6. Simply one of the worst Ratings of the season. Aired on March.



-Damage : With Andrew. 4,34. Only the eleventh best ratings. Aired on
January.

-The girl in question : 4,68.
The seventh best ratings of season 5. Aired on may.

Source : List of Angel episodes - Wikipedia


@Btvs fan is that what you wanted ?

 

[Antho]

Conviction : 5,16. Aired on October. Third best ratings behind just reward 5,24 and Not fade away.

You’re welcome : 3,95. One of the worst ratings of season 5. Aired on February.

Not fade away : 5,31. Best rating of the season 5. Aired on may.

 

[Btvs fan]

Conviction : 5,16. Aired on October. Third best ratings behind just reward 5,24 and Not fade away.

You’re welcome : 3,95. One of the worst ratings of season 5. Aired on February.

Not fade away : 5,31. Best rating of the season 5. Aired on may.

So Spike did pull the ratings in for Ats but when the audience found out he was just the ghost who did the scene per week they dropped off 🤔

To be fair E12 wasn't meant to be Cordelia but Buffy so could Cordy be blamed or Buffy 🤔

 

[Antho]

So Spike did pull the ratings in for Ats but when the audience found out he was just the ghost who did the scene per week they dropped off 🤔

On what do you based your opinion to say that ? The average ratings of the series passed from 3,65 season 4 to 3,97 season 5. There is Definitely an improvement. Perhaps not as significant than what people expected to.

To be fair E12 wasn't meant to be Cordelia but Buffy so could Cordy be blamed or Buffy 🤔

By the time the episode was broadcast I’m sure everyone knew this concerned Cordelia and not Buffy. Don’t forget there was trailers…