Did Angel leaving make BTVS a better or worse show?

[November]

Angel leaving made BTVS about Buffy again. Rather than about Bangel. Angel either needed to leave, or be killed off. For the age group it was aimed at, a steady happy couple fighting bad guys isnt the appeal. I am happy that Angel moved to his own show.

 

[Killjoy]

I'm sure to the Bangel fans it was worse. But I honestly thought Angel became a whole lot better character when he was on his own show.

 

[machinewolfhear]

i thought i was a good move

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Right. Buffy jumped the shark at the end of season 3, so the series did decline in quality. I mean, Season 4 & 5 always felt off, 6 & 7 are bad. So, it's not like the series had all these great unusable plots stored up, and needed Angel gone to do them. They had one really great idea in Angel, and couldn't replicate it.

Having said that, Angel and Buffy didn't really have a lot of milage left in it, and trying to keep it interesting would have probably come down to,

"On the WB's New Tuesday, Buffy finds out that when you agree to cohabitate with your boyfriend, you sign a deal with the devil. "Angel, we signed a year long lease with a security deposit and first and last month's rent, and then you've turned evil... again?" "Sorry Buffy, this lease is a sacred deal under demon law. I may be coocoo for Coca puffs, but I am going against the Dark Land Lord." Join us for the WB's Special Shacking Up Event!

 

[NoShip]

When Angel left the show, was that good or bad for BTVS?

Angel leaving was bad for BTVS. His absence left a hole that no character ever came close to filling.

Post automatically merged: Aug 22, 2026

But again where do you go from it. It was played out. The writers openly mocked it in the show. The scene in the Zeppo or Oz and Angel conversation in Dopplegangland.
I mean what probably would've happened was possibly a triangle with Riley but sounds boring as hell

Where do you go with it? You show a growing relationship between two people who love each other. You have adventures. Angel and Giles have a growing friendship. Xander becomes the annoying but hillarious little brother. The fact that Whedon and Co were to uppity to see the possibilities is on them.

 

[NileQT87]

Better for Angel as a character. Much, much worse for BtVS leaning on him so heavily for drama, plot, any remaining gothic atmosphere and philosophical exploration. The show stumbled hard with his absence. AtS' growing pains were far more gentle, as they had a much more solid mission statement that came with his character journey. BtVS didn't outgrow Angel. Angel outgrew BtVS.

 

[Btvs fan]

Angel leaving was bad for BTVS. His absence left a hole that no character ever came close to filling.

Post automatically merged: Aug 22, 2026

Where do you go with it? You show a growing relationship between two people who love each other. You have adventures. Angel and Giles have a growing friendship. Xander becomes the annoying but hillarious little brother. The fact that Whedon and Co were to uppity to see the possibilities is on them.

That was never gonna happen. DB and NB loathed each other (pre S3 they had a fight on a promotional tour that Joshua Jackson had to break up) DB only put up with him in S3 because he was leaving for Ats anyway. No way he'd want to work with NB full time in storylines.

Better for Angel as a character. Much, much worse for BtVS leaning on him so heavily for drama, plot, any remaining gothic atmosphere and philosophical exploration. The show stumbled hard with his absence. AtS' growing pains were far more gentle, as they had a much more solid mission statement that came with his character journey. BtVS didn't outgrow Angel. Angel outgrew BtVS.

I kind of agree with this but more broadly as shows overall rather than specific characters. Buffy was always the High School show, High school is hell metaphor, and losing that base line I think caused the show to stumble. I think they could've carried on with College but College was dropped by S5 and Buffy is now a mother figure to Dawn instead.

Regards Angel and urs growing pains. I really praise Tim Minear for sorting that out.
The original pitch was a monster and victim of the week., he stomps the big bad monster and rescues thewhite blond female victim. Joss even admits on the DVD Commentary how this goes completely against what he was trying to do with Buffy as a show ! But even for Angel it's 1 dimensional and limiting.
It was Tim Minear who changed it to being about Angel and his own journey.
You can see that in Sonmabullist and Prodigal

 

[NoShip]

That was never gonna happen. DB and NB loathed each other (pre S3 they had a fight on a promotional tour that Joshua Jackson had to break up) DB only put up with him in S3 because he was leaving for Ats anyway. No way he'd want to work with NB full time in storylines.

I kind of agree with this but more broadly as shows overall rather than specific characters. Buffy was always the High School show, High school is hell metaphor, and losing that base line I think caused the show to stumble. I think they could've carried on with College but College was dropped by S5 and Buffy is now a mother figure to Dawn instead.

Regards Angel and urs growing pains. I really praise Tim Minear for sorting that out.
The original pitch was a monster and victim of the week., he stomps the big bad monster and rescues thewhite blond female victim. Joss even admits on the DVD Commentary how this goes completely against what he was trying to do with Buffy as a show ! But even for Angel it's 1 dimensional and limiting.
It was Tim Minear who changed it to being about Angel and his own journey.
You can see that in Sonmabullist and Prodigal

You are right about DB and NB. However, a strong Showrunner would coerce good performances from both. SMG and AH's feud didn't really affect much of what we saw and that went on for several years.

 

[silvermoon]

I think Angel did his time on Buffy and it was the natural time for him to leave. I agree with others , he was more interesting on his own show. All the characters I find the most irritating all left for Angel - Cordy, Wesley, and Angel. They became much more interesting far from buffyworld. They were all a bit one note imo - Wesley was like this nerdy English stereotype, Cordy was the big-mouthed cheerleader, Angel was either soppy for Buffy or evil as Angelus. Not much nuance, although Cordy had her moments. I guess they all did, but ultimately I think they were fleshed out elsewhere

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

P.P.S. For Seasons 5,6 & 7, Angel and Buffy could have gone Tommy & Tuppence with Monsters, easily. Angel works in young adult era, it's just college I question if he does.

Also remember, Buffy ended because Sarah felt alienated and humiliated by season 6. That doesn't happen if David stays on the show.

 

[Btvs fan]

P.P.S. For Seasons 5,6 & 7, Angel and Buffy could have gone Tommy & Tuppence with Monsters, easily. Angel works in young adult era, it's just college I question if he does.

Also remember, Buffy ended because Sarah felt alienated and humiliated by season 6. That doesn't happen if David stays on the show.

Working 15 hour nights and the stress of feuding with your boss are not gonna change because DB is about. Big if on that anyway as Gail Bergstram the Makeup Artist has said she was fired because of her friendship with Sarah !

 

[thrasherpix]

Working 15 hour nights and the stress of feuding with your boss are not gonna change because DB is about. Big if on that anyway as Gail Bergstram the Makeup Artist has said she was fired because of her friendship with Sarah !

But it could've prevented Spuffy, particularly the kind that SMG hated in season 6. That could very well mean we'd have gotten at least one more season of Buffy (and a different, hopefully very different, season 7) than we did.

 

[Btvs fan]

But it could've prevented Spuffy, particularly the kind that SMG hated in season 6. That could very well mean we'd have gotten at least one more season of Buffy (and a different, hopefully very different, season 7) than we did.

No I don't think so. By that time SMG was done with Buffy. AH said she'd been bored since S3.

Also it was Joss who had those scenes written. The intent doesnt change simply because its Angel rather than Spike in them.

 

[NotASlayer]

No I don't think so. By that time SMG was done with Buffy. AH said she'd been bored since S3.

Probably not coincidentally, when David left. Though I'm cautious about such statements.

Also it was Joss who had those scenes written. The intent doesnt change simply because its Angel rather than Spike in them.

It was an established relationship though. It would have been difficult to write it as irredeemably vile as Spuffy was, and I imagine DB would have pushed back as hard as SMG on any attempt to do so.

More, it would be written as Angel providing genuine support for Buffy when she needed it, not exploiting her in order to ensure she remains broken and continues having sex with him, which was off the table with Angel anyway.

 

[Btvs fan]

Probably not coincidentally, when David left. Though I'm cautious about such statements.



It was an established relationship though. It would have been difficult to write it as irredeemably vile as Spuffy was, and I imagine DB would have pushed back as hard as SMG on any attempt to do so.

More, it would be written as Angel providing genuine support for Buffy when she needed it, not exploiting her in order to ensure she remains broken and continues having sex with him, which was off the table with Angel anyway.

The guy literally wrote the Season 8 comics where Angel kills a bunch of Slayers and they have sex that creates a universe !

 

[XanderesqueMan]

As I once joked, my favorite season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is seasons one to three. The show did change after that, but I don't think it was solely the loss of Angel and Cordelia (though it certainly had an impact.) A number of things impacted how the show would be afterwards—the loss of the school environment (college just isn't the same), Principal Snyder, as much presence of Joyce, Buffy's more hopeful nature, Willow and Xander's closeness (not gone but definitely changed), etc.

I like Angel a lot, but his leaving didn't just seem like a gimmick to get him on his own show. It felt like a natural point in his arc as a character and in their relationship. It seemed right when it happened—at least to me. I wouldn't have been upset to see more of him, but I think it would have reached a point of diminishing returns quite soon if things hadn't changed drastically.

I guess I don't think it made the show better or worse, but I think it was the right choice to make, especially for Angel, who got to come into his own on his show, not only in terms of character development, but in terms of what he was allowed to do (for instance, note how many fights he's allowed to win on Buffy versus his own show.)

 

[Btvs fan]

As I once joked, my favorite season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is seasons one to three. The show did change after that, but I don't think it was solely the loss of Angel and Cordelia (though it certainly had an impact.) A number of things impacted how the show would be afterwards—the loss of the school environment (college just isn't the same), Principal Snyder, as much presence of Joyce, Buffy's more hopeful nature, Willow and Xander's closeness (not gone but definitely changed), etc.

I like Angel a lot, but his leaving didn't just seem like a gimmick to get him on his own show. It felt like a natural point in his arc as a character and in their relationship. It seemed right when it happened—at least to me. I wouldn't have been upset to see more of him, but I think it would have reached a point of diminishing returns quite soon if things hadn't changed drastically.

I guess I don't think it made the show better or worse, but I think it was the right choice to make, especially for Angel, who got to come into his own on his show, not only in terms of character development, but in terms of what he was allowed to do (for instance, note how many fights he's allowed to win on Buffy versus his own show.)

The show was High School is hell using metaphors for School issues. Hard to do that without High School.
I actually think the College setting could've worked but they pretty much dropped it after S4 and the Initiative Arc fell flat as did Riley the new love interest. Also Joss wanted Buffy in a mother role with Dawn.

 

[NotASlayer]

The guy literally wrote the Season 8 comics where Angel kills a bunch of Slayers and they have sex that creates a universe !

Rather more difficult to do that with real people on a show with budget constraints than it is in a comic. And from what I've heard Joss had almost zero oversight with the comics so no-one to reign him in.

 

[Btvs fan]

Rather more difficult to do that with real people on a show with budget constraints than it is in a comic. And from what I've heard Joss had almost zero oversight with the comics so no-one to reign him in.

He wrote it, everything was decided by him. Other comic writers confirmed it. He only got bored by mid s9