Discussion of 4.17 "Superstar" - Aired 4/04/00 (WB-US)

Buffy was less confident because she lacked the memories of all her past successes- killing the Mayor and defeating the Master (they belonged to Jonathan now)- but she was still in love with Riley, not Jonathan.
Surely if it was straight-up mind-control then everyone would be in love with the guy?
 
This was an amusing episode at first, seeing Jonathan's fever dream of being the hero. I liked the tone of a Saturday morning spy cartoon at the beginning, bringing reminiscence to my childhood cartoons. But then it dragged on way too long. Way, way, too, long. Jeez, is it not over yet?

All joking aside, this Jonathan storyline would've been better served as a single minute montage, with him imagining what could've been. THAT would've been fine on its own, not when it's this entire dragged out episode that (like others have said) disrupted the pacing of the mid-season that was just building momentum with Faith's return. Also, that "Class Protector" joke was a low blow. It was pretty much one of the most meaningful things for Buffy in season 3, period, and now it's reduced to a cheap gag here. Not funny at all.

Being bored throughout most of this episode, all I could think about was why Biley didn't click with me. There's enough justified reasons to like the guy, and the only time I had a real problem with him so far was in one episode, when he was being pushy about Buffy not wanting to be with him. His awkward speech patterns aside, there just isn't that much wrong with him... And yet, I just don't feel the chemistry in Biley at all.

I remember feeling this way back when Angel and Buffy first hooked up. That relationship felt kinda sudden too as I kept trying to search for the one moment when they "fell in love" with each other, trying to find a reason for it (that isn't "the writers needed a romance"). But at least with Angel, I could eventually come to accept that he's this dark, brooding bad boy who made Buffy feel safe. With Riley, I guess the reasoning would be "Buffy wants a normal guy," but then she only "fell in love" with him (AKA kissing him) AFTER she learned he's NOT a normal guy and was involved with the shady Institute organization, so... logic? I don't know. The whole Biley relationship, whenever they come on screen, just feels so contrived for me, like it's only there because the writers needed a relationship, not because it has chemistry. Even when Riley tries to be nice to Buffy in this episode, it's only after he insulted her ("It sounds like nonsense"). It would've been okay for him to be so awkward if he is a comic relief character like Xander, but not when he's supposed to be Buffy's better-half or her soulmate.

Speaking of Xander, he has this one disingenuous line that reminds me of why I disliked him and his sarcasm in earlier seasons: "He blinks? The man blinks and we're having a meeting about it." I initially wrote an entire tirade in this post (which I trimmed) about his annoying role as a comic relief, but considering how much he has grown over the seasons, I felt that it's probably a little unfair to gripe about him over one line (not to mention that it isn't really his fault he's defending Jonathan).

Xander at the end of the episode: "You know what I'll always remember? I'll always remember the way he made me feel about me. Valued, respected. Sort of tingly. And now I'm just... empty."

Okay, fair enough - Xander can be cute and funny in a dorky way sometimes.

And speaking of characters I have a problem with, Spike is NOT giving me a better impression of the upcoming Spuffy relationship with the rapey way he caressed Buffy in this episode. Bleck. Of course, in fairness, Soulless Angel probably have said and done things to Buffy in season 2 that weren't as wholesome either, so I guess I'll let this pass for now. Also, Spike's probably acting this way because of Faith-Buffy's seduction last episode. Still doesn't excuse his actions or make me feel any less uncomfortable towards Spike asserting his sexual dominance over brainwashed Buffy.

The end of the episode made me feel kinda sorry for Jonathan, I guess, but I just can't help thinking that in this episode, the metaphor is that Jonathan stole Buffy's confidence as a person to make himself feel better, and making other women feel small and weak just to boost your own self-esteem is a pretty scummy thing to do, inadvertent or not. I didn't really realize this until the end of the episode when Buffy gets her powers back and realizes she's the powerful woman she's always been, something that was erased by Jonathan's actions. Jonathan doesn't get my forgiveness here unfortunately.
 
I agree, it’s a funny gag for about 10 minutes then I get intensely irritated at them all treating Buffy like she’s this silly girl who doesn’t know the pointy end of a stake. Giles line of ‘I think you’re a little bit out of your depth’ is actually quite cruel. Xander also goes particularly low when Anya (I think) says that the world (and Jonathan) will stay the same if Buffy loses to the monster and Xander says ‘things looking up!’ Like wow! He does add ‘as long as she doesn’t get Killed’ but it sounds disengenious and he sounds almost happy to sacrifice Buffy if it keeps Jonathan who he is

it feels like this AU turns everyone into douchebags
 
I agree, it’s a funny gag for about 10 minutes then I get intensely irritated at them all treating Buffy like she’s this silly girl who doesn’t know the pointy end of a stake. Giles line of ‘I think you’re a little bit out of your depth’ is actually quite cruel. Xander also goes particularly low when Anya (I think) says that the world (and Jonathan) will stay the same if Buffy loses to the monster and Xander says ‘things looking up!’ Like wow! He does add ‘as long as she doesn’t get Killed’ but it sounds disengenious and he sounds almost happy to sacrifice Buffy if it keeps Jonathan who he is

it feels like this AU turns everyone into douchebags
But they're not douchebags. They live in a world where Buffy has never done anything noteworthy, where she has always been the damsel in distress needing rescue from Wonder Boy Jonathan. No wonder they have no faith in her, she's given them no reason to. The show tends to give us things from Buffy's point of view, so as viewers we get very overprotective of her whenever someone isn't being very nice to her, but this needs to be seen from the perspective of the group who only remember this AU world. It's like expecting Wish!Verse Buffy to be super nice to Giles when she doesn't even know him.
 
But they're not douchebags. They live in a world where Buffy has never done anything noteworthy, where she has always been the damsel in distress needing rescue from Wonder Boy Jonathan. No wonder they have no faith in her, she's given them no reason to. The show tends to give us things from Buffy's point of view, so as viewers we get very overprotective of her whenever someone isn't being very nice to her, but this needs to be seen from the perspective of the group who only remember this AU world. It's like expecting Wish!Verse Buffy to be super nice to Giles when she doesn't even know him.
But they’re still her friends. She’s obviously not the hero which is fine because it’s Jonathan’s spell but Giles is still being condescending with his ‘you’re out of your depth’ and Xander almost dismissing the fact she may die - infact he almost sounds like he’s hoping for it at one point. It’s not like the wishverse where Buffy and Giles didn’t know each other, they may not view her as ‘Buffy the vampire slayer’ in Jonathan’s reality but she’s still ‘Buffy their friend’. Xander’s not the hero but they don’t dismiss him as much as they dismiss Buffy in this episode
 
T
thrasherpix
I'm curious if you'll be as harsh on Buffy when she, as a high school counselor, jumps the bones of a high school student (and how she treats her sister under the same spell) while under a spell in season 7.
But they’re still her friends. She’s obviously not the hero which is fine because it’s Jonathan’s spell but Giles is still being condescending with his ‘you’re out of your depth’ and Xander almost dismissing the fact she may die - infact he almost sounds like he’s hoping for it at one point. It’s not like the wishverse where Buffy and Giles didn’t know each other, they may not view her as ‘Buffy the vampire slayer’ in Jonathan’s reality but she’s still ‘Buffy their friend’. Xander’s not the hero but they don’t dismiss him as much as they dismiss Buffy in this episode
But that's the whole point of the spell - Jonathan doesn't change the fact that Buffy is the Slayer, instead, he suppresses what that means so he can be better than her. Giles isn't being condescending, he's being honest because he's her friend, at least from this world's POV and ruleset. Xander has to take Jonathan's side, first and foremost, because the spell forces him to. Also, some things are there to be funny, not a product of 'this person is like this' so you really can't take a lot of Xander's comments too seriously, whether you personally find them funny or not. But that's just me, I guess. I'm sorry if you feel like they're just being super mean. I happen to adore this episode so I'm obviously going to have a different view of it than someone who considers most of it a waste.
 
This episode I didn't care for, I watched anyway. Although there were a couple of scenes and moments made it less meh.
 
This episode I didn't care for, I watched anyway. Although there were a couple of scenes and moments made it less meh.
I'm 50/50 with you on this one, I think it's one of those OMWF episodes it's break the Buffy vs Big Bad or Series Arcs and breaks from reality for a moment...

I think @Oruomus points out "and making other women feel small and weak just to boost your own self-esteem" that the episode is about Jonathon taking away Buffy's female empowerment and making her "just a teenage girl" a complete opposite of what Joss made the entire series to be...and yes in the end you see Jonathon to be this lost boy who tried to kill himself just trying to find self esteem through taking it away from others, I think you can see it as some kind of proto Incel culture, yes you feel sorry for him but Christ he's a complete dick...Warren pure misogynistic asshat...Andrew who knows what he is but he's a great orator.

I do like the episode on the whole
 
Seems like everyone's got mixed feelings about this episode! Granted it was very stupid, but I think that was the point. I always enjoy when they do an episode that's not Buffy-centric or important to the overarching plot, and I liked the way they switched up the storytelling here. Kinda reminded me of The Zeppo, same show just a different POV. Also, very funny how they switched up the opening title.
Xander acted very gay in this episode. Like really gay. I'm always on the lookout for Xander gay moments. I'm gathering evidence.
 
Mr Trick
Mr Trick
Good point
Saw this on the Rewatch and its boring as well as disturbing. The Joke gets old by the credits
 
It is an episode that, for me, just doesn't work. It's a potentially interesting idea, but I don't rate the execution highly.
 
I liked this episode. Johnathan is basically a loser who has used magic to make himself a celebrity but we get to see that there is a cost for doing this. That part comes across as an after-school special but it is reasonably well done. At the end, everyone is mildly annoyed by him but that memory is seen to gradually fade.

And the poster of Johnathan as a basketball star? That was one of the better laughs of the episode.
 
It's a fun premise with a lot of commitment to the bit. It has no value as a mystery. But it's not the worst episode. I mean, I have a retelling of Frankenstein with a football star that debunks that notion.

Also, the episode gave a lot more exposure to Danny Strong than he really deserved.
 
I just watched this again...I've been watching season 4 eps I don't much care for (I guess because I don't have them memorized) the last few days.

If anyone here works on the Buffy wiki, I noticed in this episode that while doing research, Willow says "here's a spell to turn enemies inside out." That should go in the Continuity notes for the episodes Villains and Superstar as that's what she does to Warren.
 
B
Btvs fan
She doesn't turn him inside out she just skins him
G
garfan
Now, if we didn't see theskin it could be mistaken for that
Not a fan. At all.
Its boring and the joke stops being funny by the credit sequence.
The whole issue with the twins is not great either. Its just treated as a laugh while having Buffy get over things after a few words with Jonathan makes her less sympathetic in Sanctuary
Also Riley viewpoint is totally neglected too
 
One issue is that, though Jonathan didn't force people to do anything, he just tampered with perceptions of him so that they would react the way they would if he had been what they believed him to be, this led to them doing things they wouldn't have done because Jonathan wasn't what they thought. It actually reminds me of Willow tampering with Tara's memory.
 
One issue is that, though Jonathan didn't force people to do anything, he just tampered with perceptions of him so that they would react the way they would if he had been what they believed him to be, this led to them doing things they wouldn't have done because Jonathan wasn't what they thought. It actually reminds me of Willow tampering with Tara's memory.
He says the twins moved out at the end of the episode so they were only staying with him because of the spell
 
He says the twins moved out at the end of the episode so they were only staying with him because of the spell

Yes. Because they thought he was what the magic was making him out to be - and in some cases he was - they were with him. It's not that the magic was precisely forcing them to be with him; it was colouring their perceptions and causing them to make choices based on it. Neither is right, because our memories make us what we are.
 
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