Discussion of 5.22 "Not Fade Away" - Aired 5/19/2004 (WB-US)

[thrasherpix]

Just a random thought that came to me now...while the ending might have meant that the fight never ends (which one came up with, not sure if that was what they were thinking before, or after when they needed something better to say than "tantrum at not being renewed"), that it also proves Holland Manners right in the elevator. They have no such end game as prosaic like "winning." They just go on, in one form or another.

'Course, these both can be equally true, which also goes into Manners telling Lindsey at some point that everyone has their part to play (and Lindsey needed to figure out what his part was, or put into my words, which strands of the spider web they were all caught up in, from Manners to Angel, were woven into).

 

[hoponlilmama]

Nineteen years ago. Wow, time flies.
I thought it was a great ending for the series.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

DVD Commentary by Jeffery Bell.

43:15 is about the time of the "Take That," in case anyone is wondering. Because that is the reason that I looked it up.

 

[Btvs fan]

Nineteen years ago. Wow, time flies.
I thought it was a great ending for the series.

@NotASlayer @NoShip @thetopher

Well the season and Series Finale Not Fade Away on the one hand Its far better than Chosen as a Finale (Wesley death is really powerful and Spike at the Poetry event) on the other hand lol yeah it does end on a cliff hanger.
That all said the shot of them all in the rain waiting for the end is fantastic

 

[Kendar]

@NotASlayer @NoShip @thetopher

Well the season and Series Finale Not Fade Away on the one hand Its far better than Chosen as a Finale (Wesley death is really powerful and Spike at the Poetry event) on the other hand lol yeah it does end on a cliff hanger.
That all said the shot of them all in the rain waiting for the end is fantastic

Maybe this is a generational thing, but to me it's not a cliffhanger at all. It's a Bolivian Army ending. A cliff hanger is supposed to have future resolution. A Bolivian Army ending isn't.

 

[NotASlayer]

@Btvs fan https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BolivianArmyEnding

Based on the scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid when the title characters, in both film and real life, face off against the, well, Bolivian army.

 

[Btvs fan]

@Btvs fan https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BolivianArmyEnding

Based on the scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid when the title characters, in both film and real life, face off against the, well, Bolivian army.

In that though we knew they were going to die. That wasn't the case for NFA

 

[NotASlayer]

In that though we knew they were going to die. That wasn't the case for NFA

It's left with them outnumbered, with Gunn apparently dying which would leave them outnumbered. Assuming they all got killed is a reasonable assumption giving the end situation. Apparently, there was a degree of ambiguity added, given no season six, which leaves the ending a bit ambiguous, but anyone unfamiliar with the comics would not be making a great leap assuming that they were all wiped out.

Spoiler: Spoiler for final episode of Blake's 7.

In some ways, it's got a lot of similarity to the ending of Blake's 7.

 

[garfan]

It's left with them outnumbered, with Gunn apparently dying which would leave them outnumbered. Assuming they all got killed is a reasonable assumption giving the end situation. Apparently, there was a degree of ambiguity added, given no season six, which leaves the ending a bit ambiguous, but anyone unfamiliar with the comics would not be making a great leap assuming that they were all wiped out.

Spoiler: Spoiler for final episode of Blake's 7.

In some ways, it's got a lot of similarity to the ending of Blake's 7.

the "ambiguity" did not feel like a legitimate thing and considering they initiated the battle, I felt the whole never stop fghting message was betrayed from the beginning. Angel may as well have screamed that and rammed a stake in his chest

 

[Btvs fan]

the "ambiguity" did not feel like a legitimate thing and considering they initiated the battle, I felt the whole never stop fghting message was betrayed from the beginning. Angel may as well have screamed that and rammed a stake in his chest

Angel also sent Assassins after Drogon which almost killed him then killed him himself just to get into the circle.

He manipulated and murdered Lindsey and got Lorne to do it.

He then let Harmony a Souless Vampire go (with a job reference) free to kill again.

So his declaration to Hamilton about caring felt like a lie

 

[NotASlayer]

the "ambiguity" did not feel like a legitimate thing and considering they initiated the battle, I felt the whole never stop fghting message was betrayed from the beginning. Angel may as well have screamed that and rammed a stake in his chest

Given that this ambiguity was apparently added in when it was known S6 wasn't happening, you can end up with a feeling that something has been crowbarred in rather than it being a coherent part.

 

[Btvs fan]

Given that this ambiguity was apparently added in when it was known S6 wasn't happening, you can end up with a feeling that something has been crowbarred in rather than it being a coherent part.

The whole Circle of the Black Thorn felt crowbarred in. Plus most of them were literally joke characters that we were now expected to take seriously.
The scene of Angel declaring "Im talking about killing every member of The Black Thorn" like thats supposed to mean something 🤷‍♂️
The best one was the Senator.

 

[hoponlilmama]

@NotASlayer @NoShip @thetopher

Well the season and Series Finale Not Fade Away on the one hand Its far better than Chosen as a Finale (Wesley death is really powerful and Spike at the Poetry event) on the other hand lol yeah it does end on a cliff hanger.
That all said the shot of them all in the rain waiting for the end is fantastic

It's funny, the cast of AtS found out about mid-season they were being cancelled and had to try and tie things up, yet it didn't feel as rushed and crammed in as BTVS.

I personally think that NFA is the better series finale over Chosen. Lindsey choosing to help, Lorne taking him out, Wes dying, Connor coming to help, wondering what would happen to Gunn, Spike at the poetry slam (effulgent! 😁).

When it first aired, I did yell at the television with the abrupt ending, but over time actually appreciated it. All shows face the same challenge; how to end a series. I think AtS nailed it.

 

[Btvs fan]

It's funny, the cast of AtS found out about mid-season they were being cancelled and had to try and tie things up, yet it didn't feel as rushed and crammed in as BTVS.

I personally think that NFA is the better series finale over Chosen. Lindsey choosing to help, Lorne taking him out, Wes dying, Connor coming to help, wondering what would happen to Gunn, Spike at the poetry slam (effulgent! 😁).

When it first aired, I did yell at the television with the abrupt ending, but over time actually appreciated it. All shows face the same challenge; how to end a series. I think AtS nailed it.

It was episode 17 Underneath that they found out it was cancelled. On the DVD Commentary they said it was during the Basement fight with Angel and Spike against the Demon.
They say that as soon as they got the news everyone is suddenly calling there Agents.
I did read later that the feud between James Marsters and Producer Kelly Manners got so bad James was actually going to give his notice then found out it was cancelled so didn't need to.

 

[hoponlilmama]

It was episode 17 Underneath that they found out it was cancelled. On the DVD Commentary they said it was during the Basement fight with Angel and Spike against the Demon.
They say that as soon as they got the news everyone is suddenly calling there Agents.

Thanks, I couldn't remember if it was about halfway through or thereabouts.

I did read later that the feud between James Marsters and Producer Kelly Manners got so bad James was actually going to give his notice then found out it was cancelled so didn't need to.

Never heard of this. Who knows. If true I wonder if Spike would've met a dusty end.

 

[Btvs fan]

Thanks, I couldn't remember if it was about halfway through or thereabouts.


Never heard of this. Who knows. If true I wonder if Spike would've met a dusty end.

It was James who brought it up at a Convention literally decades ago. I saw it on YouTube I dunno if its still up. He did an impression of the Producer "Don't give a hoot just shoot shoot shoot" James was angry that he didn't care about peformances or how good the scene was, just that it was shot.
It was Charisma who actually named him saying oh thats Kelly and James got really worried saying Don't say his name.

They wouldn't have killed him, straightet after theyd brought him back to life, he was to popular a character and there was talk of a potential Spike movie etc at the time.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Eh, the only objective criteria for a cliffhanger is the open ended nature of the ending. Everything else is just opinion. Especially with the seemingly endless number of proposed Buffy spin-offs at the time. NFA works either way, both as a capstone on Angel and it's themes, and as an open ended finale that could be reworked into a season 6 if someone decides to pick up the show at the last minute.

I agree, Blackthorn being a thing, as well as Angel suddenly having secret spy Master abilities did come out of nowhere and really has nothing to do with the existing lore. I mean, with enough setup, it would have been a good reveal and a good story, but two episodes wasn't going to do it, especially since most of us saw the episode in either syndication or streaming.