As a few members here have pointed out in other posts, though we begin to see Spike show true signs of altruism in s5 of AtS, he's still acting like a jerk, one example being dragging Harmony initially AGAINST HER WILL to have sex with him. After what he did to Buffy - yeah...doesn't look good. Brushes aside his atrocities.
I haven't seen AtS S5 yet, so I can't comment. It is disappointing that the Buffyverse truly just never improves at being able to handle the topic of sexual abuse, though.
Because there are people who believe that his redemption began in s5.
I don't understand this argument. We see him start being helpful, but it, like much of his behavior in season six, is still all motivated by his obsession with Buffy. The only thing in S5 that feels in any way "redeeming" is his dynamic with Dawn, and that's only if you
choose to think he does care about Dawn independently of caring about Buffy. Which I personally do, to be clear, but I'm aware that it's by no means the only interpretation and can't really be backed up with the text. It makes most sense to me to consider his redemption arc to begin between seasons six and seven,
after getting the soul (the quest to get it doesn't count since because it was for purely selfish motives).
I think all of Spike's story is relevant and up for discussion.
Of course! I was specifically confused because, while we were in agreement that Spike's behavior doesn't actually indicate that he has changed at all, I only consider that "damning" in S7 (because, with a soul, he should in theory have become better) and you were listing S5 and S6 events as if they are bad for the same reason. I guess I do see why people would consider S5 the start of a "redemption arc," but I wouldn't; I think its too relevant to the plot of S6 that he's still an evil vampire without a soul who can't be expected to do better.
I personally believe his real redemption story began over on Angel.
I've heard this a few times, but I haven't seen this season. I'm interested to see how I feel about it when I get there.
I never said there wasn't an attempt at a redemption arc in s7. It's just a very poor one, even if you cast aside s5 & s6, his redemption journey (getting the soul) was done for all the wrong reasons. It wasn't noble, it was for a woman.
I do agree, but I will say that I think there's something really interesting about
starting a redemption arc with ignoble reasons; had the vampire lore been consistent, the Spike we would have gotten in season seven would have essentially been a completely new character, one who feels actual guilt and remorse, and he only would exist because the Spike we had known up to that point had
continued being selfish. Right up to the very end, he was selfish and did anything he could to try and get his way. And now we would have a different version of him who has to deal with those consequences. It's kind of like how Angel only has his soul because he's cursed; it was a
punishment, but one he has tried to use for genuine growth.
We likely would've seen more of this growth if BTVS had had an eighth season, a sixth season of AtS, or the planned Spike (or Faith) spin-off. Alas, it wasn't to be.
We really just don't get enough time for a complex redemption arc that deals with all of what has happened. Which is especially infuriating when you think about how much screentime of BtVS S7 Spike completely takes over... so many episodes seem to just revolve around him without adding anything interesting at all. 😒
I'd be asking Giles and Xander if all is forgiven with Angel. They might've reluctantly accepted him back into the fold but there was always a feeling of uneasiness there.
I mean, yes, they both express doubts with Angel, but it does seem like they eventually get over it. And the narrative is clearly on Buffy's side of these arguments.
The only person he's really 'friendly' with is Buffy. The rest of the gang he basically treats with contempt or doesn't even bother to interact with. Which was kinda the way he acted pre-soul anyway. Not much has changed.
This is basically my entire issue with S7 Spike summarized pretty effectively.
But for some context, in the episode Lies My Parents Told Me, this is a snippet from what we get from ol' William:
"I don't give a piss about your mum"
"That's the way the game is played" - 'Game' is harsh and heartless.
"She knew what she was signing up for" - Slayers don't 'sign up'. Spike of all people should know this.
"You didn't sign up for it and so now it's my fault" - Well, yes. You killed his mother.
"You see, unlike you, I had a mother who loved me back" - Further twisting the knife in. And completely false, there's nothing to indicate that Nikki didn't love her son.
Not a person feeling 'severe guilt'.
This is
the episode where it really felt like the show decided to commit to just pretending Spike was always right, to me. I don't even necessarily think that these are badly composed lines, but they would only have worked if we aren't supposed to take them at face value. Having Spike hide guilt behind bravado and insults is something I believe he would do, probably, but that's not what's happening here and that becomes a major problem for his arc this season. The "I had a mother who loved me" line is especially infuriating because it's framed like a big epiphany for Spike when it would literally have been more interesting if he's
wrong. It's more interesting if the things his mother said to him
are, in some way, a twisted reflection of something she actually believed in life and Spike is in denial about it. But the episode makes it clear that this isn't how you're supposed to interpret it, we're supposed to be on Spike's side. Even though, as you said, we have no evidence that anything he says about Nikki is true, either. It's an episode that has to try so hard to convince you that Robin is unreasonable in comparison to Spike, which is absurd.
I don't deny that. But as you may or may not know, that scene was re-written and paints Spike in a more sympathetic light. It's well acted by James, and shot brilliantly, but I find it troubling that we have Buffy shed a tear over her abuser and rapist. But 'severe guilt' exhibited throughout the season? I don't see it. Perhaps you do.
I may be about to commit quite a major Spuffy shipper heresy here, but I don't actually
like the scene in the church, haha. I see it referenced pretty often as this fantastic scene, but it was just okay to me. I think the cinematography is absolutely beautiful, and Spike holding the cross is a really tragic looking image, but I really didn't like the script here, actually. I only cite it because it's one of the clearest examples of Spike and guilt throughout the season. It's almost like they showed him express guilt, like, two or three times and assumed that was enough.
I did know it was re-written, and I'm so curious what the original version was like...
And correct, Angel wasn't there. So someone has filled him in on Spike's return to Sunnydale and his timeline. Someone has told him Spike went 'crazy in a basement' for a couple of weeks and then was pretty much back to Spike pre-soul. We as the audience also observe it.
Do you think that being told what has happened by someone else gives Angel some kind of good insight into what Spike is experiencing internally? I agree that we don't see evidence of a lot of change, but I also have a hard time that, even if Spike
was horribly wracked with guilt and behaving different, that Angel would have an objective perspective on that, especially from hearing about it second-hand.
We get some insight to what Spike and Angel feel when they have a couple of conversations over on AtS. I loved those, however brief they were.
I'm looking forward to it. I've been enjoying AtS more than I thought I would, and Spike is one of my favorite characters
🙂 so I think it will be really cool to get to see him over there.
For all the evidence that is there that defends Spike, there's also the same amount there to contradict it.
Yeah, pretty much.
The "plan" for Spike was basically to turn him into a "normal guy". Clothes, attitude, interactions with others. The idea was that getting his soul back fundamentally broke him and he had to completely remake himself.
Spike's fans without reservation despised the "new" Spike. They were so vocal about no longer watching Buffy (at the exact same time that Buffy's ratings were crashing) that UPN demanded changes and Fox forced Whedon-Noxon to comply.
Once any TV show loses its ratings luster, it also loses its autonomy. Executive interference becomes an almost daily occurance.
It's such a shame that they backed out of this. The thing about television is that it lives or dies on ratings, but there are a lot of things that get bad ratings at the time that are reevaluated and more appreciated later. I think there's a good possibility that a drastically changed Spike would be looked at more kindly in retrospect than he was at the time.
The analysis and conclusion is simple. Why? Because the tv ratings and behind the scenes articles in Variety or The Hollywood Reporter or TV Guide or People Magazine are publically available. So are articles critical of major changes on the front end.
This kind of goes along with my previous paragraph; I don't like that ratings are the only way to measure "success" for television. Many things that are good stories get bad ratings, get cancelled, and then become a cult classic later on.
If you look at the ratings and market research from 2001-2002, S6 was a disaster. About 70% of the audience disliked to hated it. They only kept watching because they could not believe that the most famous Joss Whedon protoge was that terrible. Everyone thought the show would turn around and it didn't.
About 10% liked to loved S6 in 2001-2002. Since then a lot of Millenials and Gen Z have discovered Buffy and S6 has become more popular. How much more popular? No one knows because there are no ratings or market analyses done for reruns. The streamers could give out excellent viewership numbers but they refuse to give out proprietary information.
I know a lot of people who love S6, and I wonder if having the context of exactly how long the show has this tone makes it more appealing? When watching it air, you don't know how many seasons will follow or when this arc will end, which I could see being really upsetting. It's like a complete 180 that could get the show cancelled immediately or maybe last forever, neither of which you want. But when I started watching
BtVS, I began the show knowing that S6 was the season where Buffy has a toxic relationship with Spike. I knew that was the plot of S6 before I even knew who Spike was. And I know exactly how long the show continues
after that, too. So it never felt like the show just suddenly became something else. It feels a bit more contained rather than just taking over the entire show, maybe. Maybe that doesn't make any kind of difference at all, but it's interesting to think about.
But again, ratings determine how long a show gets to stay on the air, but they can't predict what will be liked twenty years later. S6 may have been considered a failure for hurting ratings, but it's really loved by a lot of people now, and I think that means it's also kind of a success, no?
The writers wanted Spike to still be a love interest isn't exactly true.
What happened was between Seeing Red and Lessons Spike's popularity dropped by almost 50%. A catastrophy for Mutant Enemy and Fox and UPN. Spike getting his soul in Grave did not bring the popularity back like Whedon-Noxon and Co thought it would.
At the same time, Gellar was telling Whedon-Noxon and the suits that she would never sign up for S8. These morons had absolute certainty that Gellar could be enticed or coerced into signing up.
S7 began filming in July 2002 while the negotiations for Gellar to join S8 continued. By the end of August, Whedon-Noxon & the suits realized that Gellar was serious and that S7 was the final season. That is why you saw the hard turn in Buffy's treatment of and interest in Spike in Him and CWDP.
So the change was to have Buffy wash the rape-stench off Spike by helping him and ignoring the rape completely.
Have you ever read "SLAYAGE: THE ONLINE JOURNAL OF BUFFY STUDIES"? One of the really interesting articles is about how to downplay a rape victim's trauma and make the rapist the sympathetic "victim". Buffy and Spike follow these steps almost exactly.
I've read a few articles from
Slayage, but not this one. I've have to take a look, do you remember the title?
I'll have to pay attention on a rewatch to when different shifts happen. It
does show that there were a lot of changes being made during the writing process, although I didn't realize it was specifically because of the S8 negotiations; what a stupid reason to completely flatten all of the character arcs like they did.
I think you just defined the difference between your age group and the older age groups. I'm in my 50's and to me and all of my friends who like Buffy, there is nothing realistic about Buffy's struggles in S6. Buffy's struggles appear to be gratuitous and shown entirely for shock value. Plus, having the entire cast spend the entire season meandering around and through various pits of despair is just crap storytelling.
Well, it's less that every individual struggle is portrayed realistically and more so that the way Buffy
reacts is often realistic in a way that feels very comforting to see, I think. Buffy's struggles with money are not realistic at all and only matter when the writers need something to use as angst fuel, but it's so realistic to be
stressed about money the way she is, and she gets a normal fast-food job to deal with it and the job itself is another source of stress. Most people aren't getting into an abusive relationship with a vampire, but feeling like you deserve something that hurts you, or like you would only be making the decisions you're making because there is something
wrong with you, is a very real experience. A friend group in their early twenties having friends who are engaged, and friends who are unemployed, and friends who are raising their siblings, is a very realistic thing to include; my friend group is like this currently. And I never died, went to heaven, and got resurrected against my will, but I really related to the way Buffy
talks about her depression. Of course a lot of the things that happen in S6 are there for shock value, but I never felt like it was
so far removed from reality that it stopped
meaning anything. Season seven on the other hand...
I didn't find anything uplifting about S6. After a while it was just boring.
This is how I felt about S7.
