Discussion of 7.22 "Chosen" - Aired 5/22/03 (UPN-US)

[DeadlyDuo]

They should've sent Rona and Kennedy in first, then when the Ubervamps are feasting on them, they could've killed a few whilst the ubervamps were distracted.

 

[white avenger]

I think that Spike and Faith are just very physical fighters who like to use their fists, but actually that was pretty stupid of them because it'll take a while to beat the vamps to death.

Try more like nearly impossible, since the only time that we ever actually saw anything like that happen was in Season 4, when Adam literally tore a vampire's head off. Neither Faith nor Spike have been shown as having the kind of strength necessary to accomplish anything like that.

 

[Fuffy]

Buffy, Angel, stop with the kissing fest...

Caleb 😱

Black tears 😱

Ding dong the witch is dead now 😀

Angel, you don't know...

Angel, he was her boinking buddy for a while, and he has a soul now...

Buffy, you have gone all Dawson on Angel a few times...

Buffy, we all are cookie dough...

Buffy deserves it 😀

Spike, this is Bangel we are talking about...

Spike, Angel doesn't wear lifts, you are just shorter than him... 🙄

Spuffy 🙄

The first as Caleb 😱

I'm drowning in footwear 😛

Willow noticed the tounge piercing 😛

Willow, you can do this 🙂

Faith and Wood are clearing things...

Faith, that won't help you in life...

Faith, when some straight girls and some gay guys look at you, their priorities shift 😉

Faith, not here...

Willow has a point, Buffy isn't very bright...

They have times to play RP games ??? 😱

Wood, school is out of session... 😛

I wanted to hear what Andrew had to say 🙁

The original scoobies 😛

This scene mirrors the first episode, I think I'm going to cry...

The seal has opened once again 😱

Spike, you look better than Liz Taylor ever looked 🙂

The power is with them now 🙂

Willow's hair is white 😱

They are coming up 😱

Bunnies are helping 🙂

Buffy 😱

Faith, take the scythe 🙂

Nice one Dawn 😀

Anya's gone 🙁

The potentials are doing a good job 🙂

Run 😱

Buffy, go 😡

Buffy, chase the bus...

This is truly the end of an era, Sunnydale's gone...

Wood, you made it 🙂

Faith is so pretty here...

No more hellmouth, we can party 😀

Xander, those landmarks are all over the world 🙂

What is Buffy going to do now ???

The End.

 

[Priceless]

Such an emotional episode. I admit I cried.

For me (confirmed Spuffy obvs so admittedly biased) the Bangel scenes were such a throw back to early seasons. Here's Angel offering to help, giving her an amulet but not knowing too much about it. Their relationship was always dramatic, and we revisit this with Buffy saying 'What was the highlight of our relationship? When you broke up with me or when I killed you?'

I like that she admits Spike is in her heart, but I also understand why she gives the 'cookie dough' speech. Angel was her first love, they went through so much together and she will always love him, but she talks about 'when I'm done' 'years, if ever', so I'm not worried they'll ever get back together. It also annoys met that Angel says 'I'm not getting any older', but he can't spare any of the years he has to devote to his son ( just a pet peeve of mine)

We've seen Spike with The First, and are meant to think he's going to start trouble, maybe fight either Angel or Buffy because he's so angry and hurt and that's what he would have done pre-soul. But he shows his growth and maturity by doing neither, and Buffy proudly gives him the 'champions' amulet. There is no melodrama here, like all their previous scenes, there's a level of maturity and togetherness than marks them as a couple and can be seen when Buffy touches his face.

I love when Buffy tells the scoobies her plan and Willow is so much like her S1 self, with no confidence, and Dawn references S1 with 'watcher junior to the library'. Giles and Buffy make up in this scene, and it's so easy and simple;
GILES
(sitting by the window) It's a lot more than that. (stands) Buffy, what you said, it—it flies in the face of everything we've ever—every generation has ever done in the fight against evil. (smiles) I think it's bloody brilliant.

BUFFY
You mean that?

GILES
If you want my opinion.

BUFFY
I really do.

This plan is what this whole show has been about, it's about making the choice to be empowered. To face your fears and make yourself strong. We see it with Willow, discussing her fears with Kennedy, but when she finally chooses to be strong and use the powers she has, she becomes a Goddess. We see it with Faith in her discussion with Robin, she has objectified herself, seeing herself as only wanted for sex.

The build up to the final battle has a lovely poignancy. Buffy stands alone on the front steps, looking outwards. Spike is starting at the amulet, looking inwards, and then they stand together in the basement, looking at each other. They don't have to speak or touch, they just understand and know.

I have to admit I cried at the final battle. I loved the original four together, and 'The earth is definitely doomed'. I loved that Andrew has a motorbike on his t-shirt (I'm reading as a reference to Spike). The tears started with Dawn's 'anything you say is gong to sound like goodbye'.

The women opening the seal seemed to reference so much; that women bleed, that it's always all about the blood and that blood is life and gives you strength. I love that it is the thought of bunnies that gives Anya her strength, that it doesn't matter what it is that makes you strong, but that you find it.

Tears were falling when it appears that they are losing the battle. Buffy falls, Anya is sliced in half and Robin is wounded. It's now that the First appears to Buffy, and taunts her, sounding like a child and telling her she is mortally wounded. Buffy is not a child anymore and she's died twice, so no little knife wound is going to keep her down! This is the turnaround, and this is when we know the battle is won, and I've always loved Buffy, but I don't think I've ever loved her more than at this moment.

The amulet begins to burn. I firmly believe that the Slayers and Willow could have defeated the Turok Han, and therefore the First, without the amulet. They are incredibly strong (Willow is arguably stronger than The First anyway), so the amulet is simply to close the Hellmouth, not to win the battle.

As he burns, Spike believes he can feel his soul. This is his redemption. Buffy and Spike clasp hands and Spike's face softens. Buffy says, calmly, that she loves him, while her hand is burning. Spike doesn't believe her. He's moved beyond Buffy here and it's no longer about her (which is why he doesn't tell her he loves her). He's realised the getting of a soul doesn't make you worthy, it is only in how you use it. While she is still there he is tempted to leave with her, so he pushes her away. He makes the choice between being with Buffy and sacrificing himself, and this is when he is redeemed and becomes a champion.

Buffy is the last to leave the Hellmouth, as it should be. She runs above it, as she has done figuratively for 7 season. She leaps onto the bus outta town. She looks down an empty open road, clear of any obstacles to her future. The Sunnydale sign falls into the crater that was once her town. Buffy's final word is 'Spike' *sigh and she smiles.

 

[TriBel]

his growth and maturity by doing neither

Except for the Angel cartoon (which I thought was funny!). Significant that Angel's blind?

I loved that Andrew has a motorbike on his t-shirt (I'm reading as a reference to Spike).

Nice! Don't think I'd noticed this.

As he burns, Spike believes he can feel his soul.

I think the early Greeks (Plato) thought the soul tingled/stung - so he's in good company.

The Sunnydale sign falls into the crater

Might be her town but it was Spike's sign. TBH, it's the bit that upsets me most!

 

[Priceless]

Except for the Angel cartoon (which I thought was funny!). Significant that Angel's blind?

Can you picture it? He's seen the woman he loves kissing his greates enemy and instead of falling apart he comes home and draws a picture and hits the punching bag. 😀 Like he says, he has no pride, and his love for her means he'll accept pretty much anything.

Might be her town but it was Spike's sign. TBH, it's the bit that upsets me most!

I loved the falling sign, it felt like Spike's last act 🙂

 

[Antho]

Buffy saying 'What was the highlight of our relationship? When you broke up with me or when I killed you?'

Do you notice Angel's face when Buffy said that ? For me he looks thoughtful and I believe he is thinking of "I will remember you" and their perfect normal day together" or maybe it's just the Bangel in me lol

 

[TriBel]

his love for her means he'll accept pretty much anything.

The First: "Oh no...(looks down at Buffy's wound reflected on its body) ow! Mommy, this mortal wound is all...itchy". Can't help thinking that this line - which is the line that energisers her - draws a parallel between them. His "stingy" soul makes him mortal - fully a man. Her itchy wound (which - as a Freudian I read as the absence of a penis) makes her fully a women. When they come together at the end they come together as William/Spike and Buffy. As mortals their time is brief but their love burns fiercely and brightly. What keeps them apart is their duty - as slayer and as Champion. Yay - poetic prose is much more interesting than writing handbooks (I'm procrastinating again). TBH, I think since Joyce died (and before) Buffy's been "wounded" by the fear she let her mum down by being a slayer and - at this moment - she realises she didn't. That was the First's big mistake - referencing her mother.

 

[Priceless]

Do you notice Angel's face when Buffy said that ? For me he looks thoughtful and I believe he is thinking of "I will remember you" and their perfect normal day together" or maybe it's just the Bangel in me lol

I didn't think of that. Yes that's probably what he is thinking about, and she'll never know

 

[Mrs Gordo]

It also annoys met that Angel says 'I'm not getting any older', but he can't spare any of the years he has to devote to his son ( just a pet peeve of mine)

Splainy please. I don't understand this and I want to.

Do you notice Angel's face when Buffy said that ? For me he looks thoughtful and I believe he is thinking of "I will remember you" and their perfect normal day together" or maybe it's just the Bangel in me lol

So true. I always thought that.

 

[Priceless]

Splainy please. I don't understand this and I want to.

One of my annoyances with Angel is with how he dealt with Connor. Instead of wiping his memory, I'd wished Angel had decided to spend some of his immortality taking care of his very damaged son.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

One of my annoyances with Angel is with how he dealt with Connor. Instead of wiping his memory, I'd wished Angel had decided to spend some of his immortality taking care of his very damaged son.

I see, well off topic from this thread but Connor was pretty far gone at this point. He was about to kill a whole bunch of people. I think of it as a parent making a decision to give their child up for adoption. Its not because the parent doesn't love the child but the parent loves the child so much that they want the child to have a better life than they can give them. The only way that Angel could take away his child's pain and give him a better life was to give him a better life, one that he felt (debatable if this is true) he could not have provided. Its a very Angel thing to do. He left Buffy so she could have a better life, he sacrificed his own time with Connor so he could have a better life.

 

[Cangel1987]

All in all it was a good episode and I liked it that far. What has make me angry about the episode was - Angel behave like a Teen, he is jeously over Spike. Where is our friend Angel from Los Angeles? That's something that still annoys me. If I be honest. He doesn't behave like the vampire, we have learn to know over the last few years. But it just mine opinion.

Oh the end of the episode was sad - when Spike burns :-(

 

[Skanky Vamp]

one that he felt (debatable if this is true) he could not have provided.

I don't think it was debatable at all. He couldn't. I mean the only way he could was by doing what he did. Which is why you see, when Connor remembers everything, he's well adjusted- because he has that "normality" from which to find his center. He would have never had that with Angel because he never had that. His upbringing was anything but normal.

 

[Ethanrayne]

I used to love this one but rewatching it now and also after reading some comments on here i cant help but be really annoyed that Spike was the one that saved them all at the end. I really liked Spike but after all it was called Buffy the vampire slayer and i didnt enjoy seeing her ending being given to another character like that. Even going so far as to making her last word spike. Concidering the purpouse of the series this ending felt a little unempowering to me. i wouldve prefered season 5s finale being the end i think.

 

[NeddaSai]

Just finished rewatching. It's not my first time but for some reason it just made me very emotional.. Yes the show had flaws but by the time I reach Chosen I always find myself not caring that much!

 

[Antho]

So, I watched « Chosen » tonight. It’s something I like doing theses day, to watch a random episode here and there.

So.. Chosen, chosen, chosen 🧐. I have mixed feelings. It’s not a bad episode, it’s entertaining ! There isn’t a single scene that I dislike. From Angel’s return and the cookie dough speech with Buffy, to Spike’s sacrifice to save the world, what’s not to love ? Even me as Bangel fan i think the Spuffy« I love you scene » with the flame🔥 is wonderful. God, we even have some nice Faith/Buffy moment and it is great to see that theses two fantastic women finally get well together. The big battle, the destruction of Sunnydale, all of this makes us understand that here we are, it’s the end, it’s time to let theses characters to fly by themselves and it’s sad to see that black screen after the generic of the end. There is definitely that powerful symbolism and the nostalgia that every season finale of every show should have. BUT :

Like I said, as far as entertainment is concerned I have no problem with Chosen, but if i start to analyze it, to think more about what Buffy (the show) means for me, it’s where I start to see some problems. I have some issues with it if I look to that episode from a feminist perspective, and it’s not normal considering Buffy is a feminist show. I will try to be as clear as I can to explain to you why.

I think some element happening here overshadowed the feminist message the writers wanted to send. It’s not as powerful as it should be. At least for me! I am a man, so it’s ironic for me to say that but men have too much importance in « Chosen » 😅. You see when Willow did that spell to give power to be strong to thousand girls, when Buffy gives the scythe to Faith, when Buffy look at the first and stand up to fight, that was it, that was my feminist show, it was perfect ! But then there is a man that save the world, two mens actually because Angel brought that amulet and Spike wore it. It’s like the producers implied that without that (Angel, Spike, the Amulet) the slayers would have lost the battle. I know there are some people here that believe the slayers would have won and that the amulet just makes the victory easier and faster, but I’m afraid I’m not one of thoses people. Anya’s death is pointless and we saw of it just like 2 seconds whereas Spike’s deaths is heroic and we see him dying for like 5 minutes. Believe me or not but the first time I have seen Chosen I didn’t even see The death of Anya 😂, I understood later thanks to the scene between Xander and Andrew. It’s problematic for me that men are the heroes and that the show concentrate on them. And lastly, Buffy’s last word on the show is « Spike ». I’m sorry but I find that problematic that the last words of the principal character of a feminist show is the name of a man. It should have been about the army of strong women they just « created ». And I swear to god, I don’t say that because it’s spike, I would have say exactly the same thing if it was Angel.

If the writers really wanted Spike to sacrifice himself it should have been done in a way that it doesn’t give the impression that he, as a man, is the hero of the finale season of a feminist show. But then it might be only me that has that vision of things.

You see, from a feminist perspective I think « the gift » is way more powerful ! With Buffy’s speech to Dawn, her sacrifice for the world !

So.. Is chosen a good finale episode ? Yes ! Is chosen the perfect final episode of a feminist show ? I don’t think so.

 

[Faded90]

So, I watched « Chosen » tonight. It’s something I like doing theses day, to watch a random episode here and there.

So.. Chosen, chosen, chosen 🧐. I have mixed feelings. It’s not a bad episode, it’s entertaining ! There isn’t a single scene that I dislike. From Angel’s return and the cookie dough speech with Buffy, to Spike’s sacrifice to save the world, what’s not to love ? Even me as Bangel fan i think the Spuffy« I love you scene » with the flame🔥 is wonderful. God, we even have some nice Faith/Buffy moment and it is great to see that theses two fantastic women finally get well together. The big battle, the destruction of Sunnydale, all of this makes us understand that here we are, it’s the end, it’s time to let theses characters to fly by themselves and it’s sad to see that black screen after the generic of the end. There is definitely that powerful symbolism and the nostalgia that every season finale of every show should have. BUT :

Like I said, as far as entertainment is concerned I have no problem with Chosen, but if i start to analyze it, to think more about what Buffy (the show) means for me, it’s where I start to see some problems. I have some issues with it if I look to that episode from a feminist perspective, and it’s not normal considering Buffy is a feminist show. I will try to be as clear as I can to explain to you why.

I think some element happening here overshadowed the feminist message the writers wanted to send. It’s not as powerful as it should be. At least for me! I am a man, so it’s ironic for me to say that but men have too much importance in « Chosen » 😅. You see when Willow did that spell to give power to be strong to thousand girls, when Buffy gives the scythe to Faith, when Buffy look at the first and stand up to fight, that was it, that was my feminist show, it was perfect ! But then there is a man that save the world, two mens actually because Angel brought that amulet and Spike wore it. It’s like the producers implied that without that (Angel, Spike, the Amulet) the slayers would have lost the battle. I know there are some people here that believe the slayers would have won and that the amulet just makes the victory easier and faster, but I’m afraid I’m not one of thoses people. Anya’s death is pointless and we saw of it just like 2 seconds whereas Spike’s deaths is heroic and we see him dying for like 5 minutes. Believe me or not but the first time I have seen Chosen I didn’t even see The death of Anya 😂, I understood later thanks to the scene between Xander and Andrew. It’s problematic for me that men are the heroes and that the show concentrate on them. And lastly, Buffy’s last word on the show is « Spike ». I’m sorry but I find that problematic that the last words of the principal character of a feminist show is the name of a man. It should have been about the army of strong women they just « created ». And I swear to god, I don’t say that because it’s spike, I would have say exactly the same thing if it was Angel.

If the writers really wanted Spike to sacrifice himself it should have been done in a way that it doesn’t give the impression that he, as a man, is the hero of the finale season of a feminist show. But then it might be only me that has that vision of things.

You see, from a feminist perspective I think « the gift » is way more powerful ! With Buffy’s speech to Dawn, her sacrifice for the world !

So.. Is chosen a good finale episode ? Yes ! Is chosen the perfect final episode of a feminist show ? I don’t think so.

I love Chosen, I think the slayer spell is probably the perfect way to end the show thematically. The entire amulet stuff was just bizarre though, it was such a lazy deus ex, it gets a blink and miss it appearance on Angel who doesn’t know what it does, he throws it to Buffy with a ‘don’t know what it does’ who throws it to Spike with a ‘don’t know what it does’ and it saves the world? I have to headcanon that they would have won anyway 😂 mostly because like you I want to believe that Willow’s spell and the slayer army is what saves the world.

I always see Buffy’s final line as being her smile though, it says a lot without her having to vocalise anything. I know characters final lines in shows are a big ‘thing’ now but was it then? I know people see it as significant that Buffy’s final line ‘Spike’ but I don’t think they did that for a particularly meaningful reason. I could be wrong though 😂

 

[Priceless]

If any writer worth their salt throws away the last line of a show that has run for 7 seasons, has a massive fanbase and always has a philosophical point to make . . . not buying it. Buffy's last line had meaning, without a doubt.

 

[Antho]

If any writer worth their salt throws away the last line of a show that has run for 7 seasons, has a massive fanbase and always has a philosophical point to make . . . not buying it. Buffy's last line had meaning, without a doubt.

I didn’t say it didn’t have a meaning. I said it was not normal for me that the last line of the principal character of a feminist show is the name of a man. Of course Buffy saying Spike has a signification but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with feminism.