Discussion of 7.22 "Chosen" - Aired 5/22/03 (UPN-US)

[TriBel]

The entire amulet stuff was just bizarre though, it was such a lazy deus ex, it gets a blink and miss it appearance on Angel who doesn’t know what it does, he throws it to Buffy with a ‘don’t know what it does’ who throws it to Spike with a ‘don’t know what it does’ and it saves the world? I have to headcanon that they would have won anyway 😂 mostly because like you I want to believe that Willow’s spell and the slayer army is what saves the world.

There's a possibility that the amulet is a MacGuffin but I've heard the same said of the scythe and The Guardian and I don't think it's true in those cases. In the first instance it alludes to "hidden in plain sight" (like people's unconscious or latent desires which make themselves manifest in speech, in patterns of behaviour etc. You can find it with the "right" code); in the second to the silencing of women's voices/history by patriarchy. It's left to the last moment because knowledge/insight that emerges at the wrong "point" is easily assimilated by patriarchy. Look what happens when Buffy empowers the slayers/women. There's a brief respite and then she's at war...with men.

I don't think they'd have won without the amulet. They were in danger of being overwhelmed. IMO, it's enough that both vampires trust Buffy to know what to do with it and that it repositions their relationship with her. In the end Spike makes his own moral decision and Angel's no longer making the decisions - he complies with hers and leaves. Besides, S5-7 underscore that we can't know everything through science/social sciences/positivism. Does the Social Worker fully know Buffy? Giles couldn't imagine empowering all the Slayers. Does Buffy fully know Buffy? Her enigmatic "Mona Lisa Smile" at the end suggests there are somethings we can't know. I'm fine with the amulet.

I know people see it as significant that Buffy’s final line ‘Spike’ but I don’t think they did that for a particularly meaningful reason. /QUOTE]

. It's far too contentious for it not to be meaningful. It's loaded...and emphasised by the sign following him (it's associated he's knocked it down for a third time). The only get out I can come up with is that Spike at the end is different to the Spike at the beginning. The Spike who sacrificed himself is the product of all his encounters with Buffy and Scoobies so by default it's not just him who saved the world. Nurture - not nature wins out.

I didn’t say it didn’t have a meaning. I said it was not normal for me that the last line of the principal character of a feminist show is the name of a man. Of course Buffy saying Spike has a signification but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with feminism.

Spike's male (pretty sure he has a penis 😏) but he isn't a man (aside from the obvious that he's a vampire, he doesn't have the social power a man has) - plus the amulet feminises him (the Elizabeth Taylor reference?) so the argument "a man saves them" isn't totally valid. Spike's a straight male - he's not gay. However, one of his functions in the text is to "queer" things. I'm sorry I don't know how to say this in French (let's face it - I can't say anything in French 😄) so it might sound a bit odd. What he does is "muddle" what it means to be male/female. There's a feminist argument to be made. Ironically, probably by a French Feminist such as Luce Irigaray.

 

[thrasherpix]

Though I think it's often not practiced, the preaching is (usually) that feminism is about equality, not the dismissal of men for the elevation of women. It (again, generally speaking, overlooking some of the fringe sects) also doesn't preclude loving, appreciating, and even admiring men. Therefore, men are certainly capable of helping a feminist hero, unless women are so weak that a man's presence automatically overshadows her (or at least feel that way). Heck, men can even have positions of power as long as that power isn't used to hold women down and will protect women from willful oppression (likewise, women in power who take part in the holding down of other women, as plenty do, aren't feminist despite being female).

And in this case, Buffy was still the leader calling the shots, and it all ultimately depended on Willow (having the battle and Willow do her spell at the same time struck me as just adding drama rather than necessary), so that's plenty feminist (at least friendly with most feminist ideology) to me, particularly in that their power is now theirs rather than controlled (and sometimes suppressed) by a council of mostly men.

It also occurred to me that since the initial Slayer creation spell were broken, they COULD have included males, more warriors against the demons, but it was only for girls, though why it had to be girls and not boys is ever addressed (I thought the reason for choosing a single girl was so she could be easily controlled in spite of her powers, not that only girls could receive such power).

But some good arguments on why that wasn't actually feminist also exist. (And if any even there said "I'm out, make sure I'm no longer a Potential please so that I can get my life back" and fled, and survived fleeing, they'd likely be activated against their will anyway, so the speech may work as a metaphor, but falls flat in the literal sense as the choice is not really theirs to make.)

 

[Priceless]

For me the feminism in saying 'Spike' at the end is that it is factually correct, Spike did destroy Sunnydale, but he only did what he did because of Buffy. She created him, or the him that sacrificed himself. It's a sense of pride she has that he chose to do that for himself, but it's her presence in his life that made him get a soul which allowed him to make that decision. She has changed a 'man' from a monster into a 'champion', one who sacrificed himself for an army of women, and for at least one woman that he loved (I'd say two with Dawn). She did it not by babying him, cajoling, doing all the emotional labour, the things society expects of women, the things they do for their partners and sons and fathers and watchers, no she did it simply by being the Slayer, by being Buffy and that was enough. That works for me.

 

[Cheese Slices]

I think the ultimate Buffy moment is her smile, as others have pointed out. But I also agree that her faith in Spike (and their relationship) encapsulates a lot of who Buffy is as a person and why she prevailed in the end, as @Priceless and others have said. So it all works out pretty well imo.

(pretty sure he has a penis 😏)

Yeah but it's crooked (I'm trying to pass this off as symbolic but really, I just remembered this fact and thought I'd share it with you all).

plus the amulet feminises him (the Elizabeth Taylor reference?) so the argument "a man saves them" isn't totally valid.

Yeah, to me Spike's sacrifice and is somewhere between the manly "saving the day" and the woman making the noble but passive sacrifice of her life. He is not very active, but goes out like a "badass".

 

[Priceless]

Yeah but it's crooked (I'm trying to pass this off as symbolic but really, I just remembered this fact and thought I'd share it with you all).

You 'remembered' this? I need details!

 

[Antho]

Spike's male (pretty sure he has a penis 😏)

Ask Buffy if you wanna know 😂😂.

plus the amulet feminises him (the Elizabeth Taylor reference?)

How ? You need to explain this to me.

let's face it - I can't say anything in French 😄)

We both know that isn’t true 😀

Yeah, to me Spike's sacrifice and is somewhere between the manly "saving the day" and the woman making the noble but passive sacrifice of her life. He is not very active, but goes out like a "badass".

What ?? What do you mean ?


Some things that are said in this thread are completely beyond me. Either people are reading too much into it either I’m afraid I’m not enough smart to think that far ^^

 

[TriBel]

Yeah but it's crooked (I'm trying to pass this off as symbolic but really, I just remembered this fact and thought I'd share it with you all).

Crooked works for me - though I'm sure it'll work even better for @Priceless 😉

 

[Antho]

But some good arguments on why that wasn't actually feminist also exist. (And if any even there said "I'm out, make sure I'm no longer a Potential please so that I can get my life back" and fled, and survived fleeing, they'd likely be activated against their will anyway, so the speech may work as a metaphor, but falls flat in the literal sense as the choice is not really theirs to make.)

Good catch ! I didn’t think much about it but yeah this argument is valid in my eyes and I add this to my list of problem with chosen if I analyze it from a feminist point of view. They literally forced a power into girl that maybe didn’t want it. They changed peoples’s life without asking them. By doing that, didn’t Buffy do to theses girls what the shadow men did to the first slayer and almost to her ? How can it be not okay for the shadow men to do that but it is okay for Buffy ? And people talk about equality...

 

[Cheese Slices]

What ?? What do you mean ?

Ok, what I mean is that typically in fiction, when a man sacrifices himself, he tends to go out swinging and take central stage and is generally very active, but that's not really the case in Chosen. He wears an amulet and basically lets himself slowly burn. He is very much in the background for most of the fight. However he does not fit completely the way that women typically sacrifice themselves, which is in a very melodramatic fashion, often for the benefit of another character; he still goes out with a smirk. Basically that was my way of saying that I don't think the show framed it as "a man saving the day", at least not the way it is typically done in fiction and mainstream media.

Good catch ! I didn’t think much about it but yeah this argument is valid in my eyes and I add this to my list of problem with chosen if I analyze it from a feminist point of view. They literally forced a power into girl that maybe didn’t want it. They changed peoples’s life without asking them. By doing that, didn’t Buffy do to theses girls what the shadow men did to the first slayer and almost to her ? How can it be not okay for the shadow men to do that but it is okay for Buffy ? And people talk about equality...

It's different though, because the key word is "alone". What was incredibly unfair about the origins of the slayer was not so much being forced to be powerful as being forced to lead a brutal life by a bunch of men and being forced to do it alone. By the end of the show, neither is true for the new slayers (the council was destroyed and there are many slayers activated). Also, something that was negative to begin with can be turned positive in the right circumstances. What Buffy gives this women is the choice and agency that go with power. What they do with that power is up to them. To put it simply, if I give you a hammer, you can decide to use it to build something, use it to bash someone's head in, or you can just put it somewhere and not use it. But at least you have the power and choice to use it.

Oh, and crooked means "bent" (tordu, pas droit) 😛

 

[Antho]

It's different though, because the key word is "alone".

I disagree. Alone or not it’s not okay to take a decisions at the place of the persons that are concerned.

To put it simply, if I give you a hammer, you can decide to use it to build something, use it to bash someone's head in, or you can just put it somewhere and not use it. But at least you have the power and choice to use it.

Yeah but maybe I didn’t want that hammer in first in my hand. And whathever the persons do with the powers it doesn’t take away Buffy’s responsability in regard to that. Another example : if I give to you a bomb : you have the choice to use it or not ! Whathever is your choice, I’m still responsible to have given to you that bomb in the first place. But actually there is an episode on Angel that are the perfect representation of that situation. Buffy is responsible for the people Dana Killed. And in other hand she is also responsible for the peoples’s lives the army of slayer will save. It’s fifty-fifty

 

[TriBel]

They literally forced a power into girl that maybe didn’t want it. They changed peoples’s life without asking them.

Isn't this similar to what politicians do everyday (unless you have a direct democracy and hold a referendum on every issue)? Don't they talk about different forms of governance in Empty Places?

Buffy is responsible for the people Dana Killed.

But what about the people (person?) who killed Dana's parents? Aren't they responsible for Dana's state of mind? How far back do you go with cause and effect (they talk about cause and effect in Lessons)? What if they people who killed her parents suffered from a serious mental health problem? Are they fully responsible? What if Dana's dad (for example) had done something awful to the person who murdered him (like Warren/Willow)? Is "an Eye for an Eye" justifiable...as Caleb seems to think?

if I give to you a bomb : you have the choice to use it or not !

Do you? Or are you obliged to weigh up your choices objectively? Wasn't this the case with Dresden and Hiroshima? Many people will die but more will live. The book Cassie's reading in Help is Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5 which is "about" the bombing of Dresden.

Buffy and Spike have a discussion which touches on the above in...um...Touched 😏 :

SPIKE: Oh, you say the word, and she's a footnote in history. I'll make it look like a painful accident. BUFFY That's my problem. I say the word, some girl dies...every time.
SPIKE There's always casualties in war.
BUFFY Casualties. It just sounds so...casual. These are girls that I got killed. I cut myself off from them...all of them. I knew I was gonna lose some of them and I didn't— (shakes her head, stands up) You know what? I'm still making excuses.

The point I'm making is, the text knows about these things - they didn't have Buffy doing what she did on a whim...they could have written it differently. IMO, the question they were asking is "What does a matriarchy look like? If we don't change fundamental structures, is it simply patriarchy with a different name? That's a quandary for some types of feminism.

Yeah but maybe I didn’t want that hammer in first in my hand.

But what if the hammer means you can protect your fellow humans from wild animals...or build a shelter for someone without one? What if everyone refused the hammer? Isn't there a moral obligation to take the hammer? Isn't this the point of a social contract - we supress our own wants for the greater good of society?

Sigh...this is why I prefer Lucifer. 😄 Less quandaries.

 

[Cheese Slices]

@Antho I get your point. I just think that it's better to have power and risk it not being handled well than not having any at all ^^
Also at the end of the day the slayer spell has a highly symbolic function and nature more than anything else. Think of the girl being beat up by a man and finally being able to stand up to him -- it's about getting back what was taken away from them (or finally getting what they never could have, I'm not sure we have a definite answer on when misogyny took root in the first place -- except that it was a long ass time ago). Concretely, they're given more power than anyone else on the planet, but symbolically it's about being given the opportunity make a choice and having agency, which does not necessarily mean a positive outcome all the time.

But at the end of the day it's up to one's personal philosophy.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Think of the girl being beat up by a man and finally being able to stand up to him -- it's about getting back what was taken away from them

And what about all the girls/women being beaten up that don't get given that power because they're not "special" enough to get it?

What about all the boys/men who are victims of women when their abuser gets the power because they were "special" enough too get it?

The slayer spell is kind of feminist virtual signalling. "Oh look at all these women being "empowered" except her and her and her etc because they're not special enough to receive this empowerment. Let's "empower" Kennedy and say screw you to Willow and other female characters established before this season. Screw you Joyce! Screw you Darla! Screw you Drusilla! Screw you Tara and Harmony and Dawn! None of you are special enough for this female empowerment! Also screw you Fred and Anne! Your accomplishments don't earn you the privilege of being empowered!"

 

[Cheese Slices]

And what about all the girls/women being beaten up that don't get given that power because they're not "special" enough to get it?

What about all the boys/men who are victims of women when their abuser gets the power because they were "special" enough too get it?

That's why I say you have to take it for its symbolic value and not at face value. Concretely, it doesn't quite work, but emotionally and symbolically it works and manages to resonate with most people. In other words : it's a Whedon script 😏

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I get amused at how people think a Whedon series is going to be somehow feminist. He had the switcheroo idea that the little blonde girl who is usually the first to die in a horror flick should be the aggressor and reversed it. This is not feminist. Any connection with feminism is opportunist, like the politicians in "Primary Colors" who found out there was a parade in town so they cut across a few side streets to get to the front of it and look like they are leading it. It turns out to be a gay pride parade and the Republican candidate is left stammering.

You have to be aware of the feminist waves that have come out. The waves are not like a linear pattern you can surf on. They are like a riptide where if one wave supports you, the next one is guaranteed to drown you.

I can think of a lot of things I am not "special" enough for. If someone gave out, say, musical talent but I didn't get any, do I have the right to complain? I wouldn't like the life on the road that most musicians have so if I got that ability, I would turn down touring. This is just like the girls who become slayers, they don't need to use their power and in the comics, about 1800 of them get empowered but only 500 are prepared to use it. And all these women were under attack from bringers whose leadership died with Caleb.

 

[Btvs fan]

I get amused at how people think a Whedon series is going to be somehow feminist. He had the switcheroo idea that the little blonde girl who is usually the first to die in a horror flick should be the aggressor and reversed it. This is not feminist. Any connection with feminism is opportunist, like the politicians in "Primary Colors" who found out there was a parade in town so they cut across a few side streets to get to the front of it and look like they are leading it. It turns out to be a gay pride parade and the Republican candidate is left stammering.

You have to be aware of the feminist waves that have come out. The waves are not like a linear pattern you can surf on. They are like a riptide where if one wave supports you, the next one is guaranteed to drown you.

I can think of a lot of things I am not "special" enough for. If someone gave out, say, musical talent but I didn't get any, do I have the right to complain? I wouldn't like the life on the road that most musicians have so if I got that ability, I would turn down touring. This is just like the girls who become slayers, they don't need to use their power and in the comics, about 1800 of them get empowered but only 500 are prepared to use it. And all these women were under attack from bringers whose leadership died with Caleb.

Whedon is the one who claimed to be a feminist and everything he was doing was feminist. I think now that's proven to be utter pretentious bull... and was a smoke screen for him to score with good looking actresses and to give himself kudos.

As for Chosen as an episode. What a pile of crap from start to finish. As say a mid season forgettable filler episode I'd have possibly given it a 5 out of 10 at best. As a season and series finale it's terrible.

There's loads of oh my god feels moments to try and disguise how empty the episode is. Whether its Angel coming back with the ex machina to the retread of the scene from the Harvest.
You've got your whole in the desert moment despite Sunnydale having docks and being on the coast ...
But the worst is having a montage of Buffy talking about giving a choice while showing girls who "weren't" given a choice. But who cares its so empowering am I right. Let's just ignore that it was previously a rape metaphor now its empowerment.

Lots of rip offs from the Last of the Monicans score to the Lord of the Rings set. I can't believe they wasted the season budget on this.
Its obvious by this point Whedon was creatively exhausted with BtVS, which he would later admit, and was proven even more with so called Season 8.

 

[Cheese Slices]

All I know is that it was very inspiring to me as a girl and young woman, and, from what I can tell, to a lot of other women as well. So in that regard at least it certainly did what it was supposed to, though obviously not everyone is going to feel this way.

 

[Dora]

Well Chosen Mmmmm, it was to short , it was not done very well all to much convenient , Strange that a series about a powerful woman , a woman that had save the world many times when run by a woman show runner for the last two seasons had a man save the world both times
The main problems as far as I could see, one basically Whedon had finished with Buffy and gave Buffy his ending in S5 and the promotion of Spike as the lead in the show , certainly in the second half of S7 ,of course the show was called BTVS so the obvious is supposed to be about Buffy , but from S6 ultimately when the sexual assault of the lead female character is use as a vessel for a story line to promote a male character by that male character something is definitely wrong
I have written many times that to push a individual male Character to be with the female lead , then the original show emphasis has to change and hence the character destruction Giles , Xander Willow and Dawn
No idea why Chosen was to short of time , we had so much about Spike in those last Buffy episodes it could have easily been extended , who gave a Sxxt how Spike became a vampire when we were counting down the episode to the end of Buffy, Spikes killing again ? lies my parents told me and so on ,it was bad enough that the vampire who only months before was trying to kill Buffy , who had so badly let her down in the gift , who abuse her when she was mentally ill then tried to rape her is told that he was her champion ? ?
Chosen was rushed to a finish because Whedon no longer cared , Buffy sets off with a suicide plan , Spike wears the emulate supplied by Angel and has a hero's death , at least Buffy is free at the end
To little to late Whedon make a small attempt to activate what was so good about the series which was the core four and their interaction's not the gross dark depression of the last two seasons

 

[Antho]

I kinda agree with DeadlyDuo in a sense that spell is very selective.. terrible for me to think that according « a magic tribunal ? » some women « deserve » to be « empowered » and screw the others.. It’s exclusive ! But realistic at the same time because I think real world also works like that. As sad as it is.
And Btvs Fan has also a point. Something that was seen as a rape ( even Buffy said it herself) is now seen as empowerment just because it’s not a man that does it, but a woman (Buffy).

 

[Priceless]

All I know is that it was very inspiring to me as a girl and young woman, and, from what I can tell, to a lot of other women as well. So in that regard at least it certainly did what it was supposed to, though obviously not everyone is going to feel this way.

Completely agree with this. When I first saw it I was blown away by the power. I'd never seen anything like it. Nowadays every show seems to be about those strong female characters, but for me back then this was really unusual to see so many women, en masse, be powerful. I love it, and even now when I re-watch I am always moved.

I'd also argue that none of the main female characters are ever 'weak', and that was really unusual. Most shows, even if they had one 'strong' female character, had six others who could be viewed as weak or one dimensional, and BtVS never had that, it worked to make all the main female characters layered and able to show strength in so many different ways.