Joss Whedon's Top 10 Buffy episodes, do you agree with it?

[Btvs fan]

Ok so on the S7 DVD Joss gives his Top 10 Buffy episodes (notice they're mainly his or heavily rewritten by him)
Do you agree with this list
@Joan the Vampire Slayer @hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip Im curious
Myself no, I don't like the Body so I wouldn't have it in there nor Prophecy Girl which while the best of S1 is not top 10 while Restless is well shot but ultimately flashy and meaningless. The rest yeah I would

“Prophecy Girl” (112)
“Innocence” (214)
“Becoming Part II” (222)
“The Wish” (309)
“Doppelgangland” (316)
“Hush” (410)
“Restless” (422)
“The Body” (516)
“Once More With Feeling” (607)
“Conversations with Dead People” (70

 

[hoponlilmama]

Ok so on the S7 DVD Joss gives his Top 10 Buffy episodes (notice they're mainly his or heavily rewritten by him)
Do you agree with this list
@Joan the Vampire Slayer @hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip Im curious
Myself no, I don't like the Body so I wouldn't have it in there nor Prophecy Girl which while the best of S1 is not top 10 while Restless is well shot but ultimately flashy and meaningless. The rest yeah I would

“Prophecy Girl” (112)
“Innocence” (214)
“Becoming Part II” (222)
“The Wish” (309)
“Doppelgangland” (316)
“Hush” (410)
“Restless” (422)
“The Body” (516)
“Once More With Feeling” (607)
“Conversations with Dead People” (70

Thanks for the tag, Btvs fan!

Am certain I listed a number of those as my favourite episodes. It's a good list. I might disagree with one or two, but it's obviously down to personal preference.

The Body is brilliant television. Granted, since I had a parent pass away I haven't been able to watch the episode (nor am I certain I ever will), but that doesn't minimise the fact it is one of my favourite episodes. I can definitely understand why people might shun it though. It's a difficult watch.

 

[Btvs fan]

Thanks for the tag, Btvs fan!

Am certain I listed a number of those as my favourite episodes. It's a good list. I might disagree with one or two, but it's obviously down to personal preference.

The Body is brilliant television. Granted, since I had a parent pass away I haven't been able to watch the episode (nor am I certain I ever will), but that doesn't minimise the fact it is one of my favourite episodes. I can definitely understand why people might shun it though. It's a difficult watch.

The only scene I liked is the final scene with the Vampire. The rest meh. The Ambulance crew leaving Buffy alone with the body, that wouldn't happen. Anya a character known for telling jokes about killing people having this teary eyed emotional speech she's never had a single scene with felt false.
The only reaction that really worked for me was Tara's. Her girlfriends friend, mother died and its sad but thats it.

To me it was Joss Whedon attempt for the Emmy he missed with Hush the year before

 

[hoponlilmama]

The only scene I liked is the final scene with the Vampire. The rest meh. The Ambulance crew leaving Buffy alone with the body, that wouldn't happen.

It's a television series, it won't be 100% realistic.

Anya a character known for telling jokes about killing people having this teary eyed emotional speech she's never had a single scene with felt false.

I really love that moment. After being a demon for so long and out of touch with humanity and feelings, suddenly it's coming down on her like a tonne of bricks.

Such a speech wouldn't have the same impact delivered by Willow, for example. But it's steeped in reality. The denial of what's happening, the confusion, the despair, the realisation said person will no longer do the most basic things in life anymore because they're gone.

She might not be personally close to Joyce, but Anya recognises the grief around her, it's palpable.

I loved the speech prior to my own experience, but those words hit ten times harder after my loss. I understood Anya's speech completely.

The only reaction that really worked for me was Tara's. Her girlfriends friend, mother died and its sad but thats it.

That line about it always being sudden - very real. I like that exchange between Tara and Buffy. They're not close, but they had a moment.

To me it was Joss Whedon attempt for the Emmy he missed with Hush the year before

I don't know if he was Emmy fishing. I think he (and the rest of the cast were aware) that for categories like acting, directing and writing, a supernatural/fantasy series wouldn't be taken seriously when it came to award shows. It was a different time.

I respect your reasons why you don't enjoy the episode, but I love that JW took a swing and it landed perfectly.

 

[NotASlayer]

Prophecy Girl, The Wish, Doppelgangland and Hush I'd agree with.

The Body is an odd one. It's a good episode, but as @AlphaFoxtrot says, it's not really a good episode of Buffy. It's also an episode that either works for you or doesn't. It's also not a very rewatchable episode, no matter whether it works or not. If it works, it's too difficult to watch often. If it doesn't, it still isn't that rewatchable.

Innocence and Becoming Part II have good points, but not easy rewatches.

Restless is more of a thought experiment.

For my top list, it would have more ones that are fun to watch again. I'd probably add Halloween, Fear Itself, Pangs (yes, maybe not a great episode but great fun) and Band Candy. For the last two, maybe a toss up between School Hard, The Freshman and Anne.

 

[wolfheart]

I Agree for 80%. I like the final episode of season 7

 

[Btvs fan]

Prophecy Girl, The Wish, Doppelgangland and Hush I'd agree with.

The Body is an odd one. It's a good episode, but as @AlphaFoxtrot says, it's not really a good episode of Buffy. It's also an episode that either works for you or doesn't. It's also not a very rewatchable episode, no matter whether it works or not. If it works, it's too difficult to watch often. If it doesn't, it still isn't that rewatchable.

Innocence and Becoming Part II have good points, but not easy rewatches.

Restless is more of a thought experiment.

For my top list, it would have more ones that are fun to watch again. I'd probably add Halloween, Fear Itself, Pangs (yes, maybe not a great episode but great fun) and Band Candy. For the last two, maybe a toss up between School Hard, The Freshman and Anne.

The Zeppo, Fool For Love and Passion should be on a Top 10 list

 

[twoslayers]

I like most of these episodes, but not Restless. Its a matter of taste, but its too esoteric for me. And Prophecy Girl is good by Season 1 standards but not one of my top ten overall. Doppelgangland is good but I wouldn't rate it quite as high either. There would certainly be some Faith episodes in my top ten, probably Bad Girls and Graduation Day Part 1. Passion might be a candidate, that was a very well constructed episode and the change of perspective is intriguing.

 

[thetopher]

I wouldn't call any episode that sacrifices established character for spectacle (or a lame joke) so 'One More With Feeling' is not on my top 10 of Joss' work, nope.

Graduation Day Part 1 & 2 should be on the list; great, strong two-parter to a top tier season; both episodes have so many great moments. They should replace OMWF and 'Conversations'- the Buffy-Holden portion of that is overwritten twaddle. Plus it has Andrew in it. pass on it being one of Joss best.

Nor is Becoming Part 2 spectacularly good, it has a brilliant, heartbreaking ending but not much else of note happens except Giles calling Angelus a berk and telling him to put on a tutu...okay, I guess that stays.

I think Restless is great, actually, a very novel way to explore and illustrate character.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Okay, I would expect Joss to like the high concept/experimental episodes of Buffy, since they were usually his concept, and in fairness, they are all quality episodes of television, if not the best of television.

But, I don't like using them in situations like these, because I would take the opportunity to promote great episodes that don't get the same level of recognition. Like, maybe there's one scene from Tony in an otherwise really stupid episode that sticks with you?

Like, if you asked me what my favorite SNES game is, I would probably say Sim City or E.V.O., as we all know Zelda 3, Mario 4, Mario All Stars, Metroid 3, Mana 2, FF 2&3, Mother 2, & Chrono Trigger are great games. We don't need to recite those again. I mean, everyone knows Zelda is the best, and we all loved Secret of Mana until you have to grind Dyrad magic. And we all pretend like we played Earthbound. No, you should pick something like Ogre Battle, which is a hidden gem of the console.

But overall, it's a defensible stump speech response.

 

[Btvs fan]

I wouldn't call any episode that sacrifices established character for spectacle (or a lame joke) so 'One More With Feeling' is not on my top 10 of Joss' work, nope.

Graduation Day Part 1 & 2 should be on the list; great, strong two-parter to a top tier season; both episodes have so many great moments. They should replace OMWF and 'Conversations'- the Buffy-Holden portion of that is overwritten twaddle. Plus it has Andrew in it. pass on it being one of Joss best.

Nor is Becoming Part 2 spectacularly good, it has a brilliant, heartbreaking ending but not much else of note happens except Giles calling Angelus a berk and telling him to put on a tutu...okay, I guess that stays.

I think Restless is great, actually, a very novel way to explore and illustrate character.

Graduation Day was basically written on the fly. I've listened to an interview by Harry Groener who said they were on set and Joss was literally writing out the script and handing pages from his office to the cast. I can see why Joss might not rate that so great. Also he did some major cop outs as well for this

Its funny you mention you dislike the Buffy/Holden scenes as they were written specifically by Joss himself.
Espenson did the Dawn scenes/Goddard the Andrew/Jonathan scenes and Marti the Willow and what was meant to be Tara scenes

I think Restless would've worked better at the start of S4 rather than the end but that imo. Funny the criticism you have for OMWF I think applies to Restless. Its flashy and a spectacle but ultimately meaningless

 

[thetopher]

I think Restless would've worked better at the start of S4 rather than the end but that imo. Funny the criticism you have for OMWF I think applies to Restless. Its flashy and a spectacle but ultimately meaningless

I mean, I get why Joss is pleased with it; he wrote a mini-musical with top notch performances, lyrics and music that pushes characters forward. That shows writing talent to be proud of.

Whereas I think OMWF's climax is extremely weak; ultimately it makes Xander a person with blood on his hands/reckless with magic for a lame joke. If Dawn had accidentally summoned Sweet, the set-up was there and that would've been fine since she was ignorant of the bad consequences until told by Sweet himself. Xander knew well before hand and kept silent whilst people burned to death.
I think that crystalizes the problem with the later seasons; the talent is still there, there's spectacle and wit in joss writing, but he's getting lazy and breaking character for joke payoffs or dramatic effect. The moral bankruptcy started small in S4 with (for example) Spike and the chip but by the end of S7 it becomes all about protagonist-centred morality and innocent life barely mattering. OMWF was a stepping stone along the way.

On the other hand Restless is character based and stands the test of time, nothing is sacrificed for spectacle, its inventive and informative.

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 9:28 AM

Btvs fan Do you consider Anya and virtually every episodes her doing a joke about killing someone part of that moral bankruptcy given she's dating Xander ?

Absolutely I do, she's a bad guy from S3 that they brought back for joke purposes in S4 and in S5 they figured out a purpose for her but by then they'd established her 'morality' so the writers ran with it. And they only make it worse by explaining her backstory in S7; a demon with a human soul all along.

Put it this way; by the end of S3 Faith is like one of the worst people on the show but when she returns at the end of S7 she is actually better than half the cast (and Andrew...and less self righteous and reckless than Buffy); and that process started in S4 with making Anya and Spike regulars.

 

[Btvs fan]

I mean, I get why Joss is pleased with it; he wrote a mini-musical with top notch performances, lyrics and music that pushes characters forward. That shows writing talent to be proud of.

Whereas I think OMWF's climax is extremely weak; ultimately it makes Xander a person with blood on his hands/reckless with magic for a lame joke. If Dawn had accidentally summoned Sweet, the set-up was there and that would've been fine since she was ignorant of the bad consequences until told by Sweet himself. Xander knew well before hand and kept silent whilst people burned to death.
I think that crystalizes the problem with the later seasons; the talent is still there, there's spectacle and wit in joss writing, but he's getting lazy and breaking character for joke payoffs or dramatic effect. The moral bankruptcy started small in S4 with (for example) Spike and the chip but by the end of S7 it becomes all about protagonist-centred morality and innocent life barely mattering. OMWF was a stepping stone along the way.

On the other hand Restless is character based and stands the test of time, nothing is sacrificed for spectacle, its inventive and informative.

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 9:28 AM

Absolutely I do, she's a bad guy from S3 that they brought back for joke purposes in S4 and in S5 they figured out a purpose for her but by then they'd established her 'morality' so the writers ran with it. And they only make it worse by explaining her backstory in S7; a demon with a human soul all along.

Put it this way; by the end of S3 Faith is like one of the worst people on the show but when she returns at the end of S7 she is actually better than half the cast (and Andrew...and less self righteous and reckless than Buffy); and that process started in S4 with making Anya and Spike regulars.

You see I see that joke stuff in Restless too. See the Xander Spell by myself line or the Virgina curtains that Willow and Tara talk in


I completely agree about the Anya stuff. They actually forget she had a car in Graduation Day by Triangle as in that she'd never driven before apparently.
Also both Olaf and the guy in Hells Bells are her victims yet both seen as disposable villains

 

[Btvs fan]

I mean, I get why Joss is pleased with it; he wrote a mini-musical with top notch performances, lyrics and music that pushes characters forward. That shows writing talent to be proud of.

Whereas I think OMWF's climax is extremely weak; ultimately it makes Xander a person with blood on his hands/reckless with magic for a lame joke. If Dawn had accidentally summoned Sweet, the set-up was there and that would've been fine since she was ignorant of the bad consequences until told by Sweet himself. Xander knew well before hand and kept silent whilst people burned to death.
I think that crystalizes the problem with the later seasons; the talent is still there, there's spectacle and wit in joss writing, but he's getting lazy and breaking character for joke payoffs or dramatic effect. The moral bankruptcy started small in S4 with (for example) Spike and the chip but by the end of S7 it becomes all about protagonist-centred morality and innocent life barely mattering. OMWF was a stepping stone along the way.

On the other hand Restless is character based and stands the test of time, nothing is sacrificed for spectacle, its inventive and informative.

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 9:28 AM

Absolutely I do, she's a bad guy from S3 that they brought back for joke purposes in S4 and in S5 they figured out a purpose for her but by then they'd established her 'morality' so the writers ran with it. And they only make it worse by explaining her backstory in S7; a demon with a human soul all along.

Put it this way; by the end of S3 Faith is like one of the worst people on the show but when she returns at the end of S7 she is actually better than half the cast (and Andrew...and less self righteous and reckless than Buffy); and that process started in S4 with making Anya and Spike regulars.

Good point, Faith actually turned herself in and confessed to her crimes and did Jail time. She only busted out to stop Angelus and then because Willow asked for her help. Compared to the others

Willow/Giles/Spike/Anya and Andrew are all murderers
Buffy is an attempted murderer
Wood covered up a murder
Not one of them goes to jail for any of those crimes

 

[fauxindigo]

Ok so on the S7 DVD Joss gives his Top 10 Buffy episodes (notice they're mainly his or heavily rewritten by him)
Do you agree with this list
@Joan the Vampire Slayer @hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip Im curious
Myself no, I don't like the Body so I wouldn't have it in there nor Prophecy Girl which while the best of S1 is not top 10 while Restless is well shot but ultimately flashy and meaningless. The rest yeah I would

“Prophecy Girl” (112)
“Innocence” (214)
“Becoming Part II” (222)
“The Wish” (309)
“Doppelgangland” (316)
“Hush” (410)
“Restless” (422)
“The Body” (516)
“Once More With Feeling” (607)
“Conversations with Dead People” (70

Restless is far from meaningless! It's actually like the most meaningful episode!

 

[thetopher]

You see I see that joke stuff in Restless too. See the Xander Spell by myself line or the Virgina curtains that Willow and Tara talk in

Yes, but lame joke at the expense of character is way worse than just a lame joke. In Restless Willow just dreamed that Xander said the 'spell by myself' line (which Xander haters take as his real expression) but in OMWF he's actually way worse; making lame jokes/keeping secrets when others are burning alive.

Willow/Giles/Spike/Anya and Andrew are all murderers
Buffy is an attempted murderer
Wood covered up a murder
Not one of them goes to jail for any of those crimes

Add Xander to the list; summoning Sweet got people killed and he shows zero remorse/nobody acknowledges he did anything wrong.

I would say Giles murdered only in the line of duty, he is still a Watcher and is at least held accountable by some kind of 'good' organization. Buffy only killed humans in the middle of combat when they were trying to kill her (or her friends/family) which I think is fine, morally speaking.

If we include AtS then both Wesley and Gunn kill humans in cold blood.

 

[NotASlayer]

Yes, but lame joke at the expense of character is way worse than just a lame joke. In Restless Willow just dreamed that Xander said the 'spell by myself' line (which Xander haters take as his real expression) but in OMWF he's actually way worse; making lame jokes/keeping secrets when others are burning alive.

Especially when you compare this to his behaviour in B, B & B, when, after realising what he'd done, he promptly admitted to it. Then never touched magic again until, apparently, OMWF, giving him less character in S6 than back in that episode.

 

[Btvs fan]

Yes, but lame joke at the expense of character is way worse than just a lame joke. In Restless Willow just dreamed that Xander said the 'spell by myself' line (which Xander haters take as his real expression) but in OMWF he's actually way worse; making lame jokes/keeping secrets when others are burning alive.



Add Xander to the list; summoning Sweet got people killed and he shows zero remorse/nobody acknowledges he did anything wrong.

I would say Giles murdered only in the line of duty, he is still a Watcher and is at least held accountable by some kind of 'good' organization. Buffy only killed humans in the middle of combat when they were trying to kill her (or her friends/family) which I think is fine, morally speaking.

If we include AtS then both Wesley and Gunn kill humans in cold blood.

In fairness Joss on the DVD Commentary regretted that scene saying Willow wasn't in it and so it wasn't from her perspective as the dream should be.

Buffy attempted to murder Faith to feed her to her boyfriend and was joyful about it "Its perfect"
Buffy if Angel drains Faiths blood it could kill her" "not if she's already dead !"

Other stuff like killing the Knights was self defence (Dekight confirmed they were human) though she was willing to see the whole World go to crap rather than kill Dawn and she left Ben alive forcing Giles to the deed even though she knew Glory would come back and inflict vegence

Angel with a soul murdered humans in cold blood, locked Lawyers in with Vampires, made people think they were pedophiles and ordered murders (Lindsey) so yeah he's not great.

Gunn murdered the Professor only to give him a quick death and to spare Fred and to survive on the streets. Though he did admit when he let the Sarcophogus released that somone would die just not Fred or one of the gang

Wesley hmm yeah he was pretty hard core and I always love his conversation with Willow as unintentionally hilarious at how brutal the characters became
"Iv had a darkness"
"I flayed a guy alive"
"Oh I kept a girl in the closet it doesn't compare"

 

[thetopher]

Buffy attempted to murder Faith to feed her to her boyfriend and was joyful about it "Its perfect"
Buffy if Angel drains Faiths blood it could kill her" "not if she's already dead !"

I think part of the point of Graduation Day is that Buffy willing to cross any moral line to save Angel was bad, sort of she wasn't going to kill Faith before Angel was poised- even though Faith was off the rails and full blown evil- but with Angel dying she sacrificed her ethical lines and then herself (making Angel bite her and leaving her possibly too weak to stop the ascension) which is ultimately why Angel had to leave town.

Of course the writers then did the same exact trick with Dawn and then Spike with less success each time but a) that's not Angel's fault and b) Buffy doesn't really consider killing Faith again post-coma.

Other stuff like killing the Knights was self defence (Dekight confirmed they were human) though she was willing to see the whole World go to crap rather than kill Dawn and she left Ben alive forcing Giles to the deed even though she knew Glory would come back and inflict vegence

I think there are character reasons for Buffy being resolutely unwilling to even consider sacrificing Dawn, its not like she doesn't care about humanity, its just that she can't even countenance the idea of failure when it comes to stopping Glory. Given how she had a nervous breakdown hours before its not unsympathetic imv.

Angel with a soul murdered humans in cold blood, locked Lawyers in with Vampires, made people think they were pedophiles and ordered murders (Lindsey) so yeah he's not great.

True, but Angel doesn't act like he's better than everyone most of the time, he feels the weight of the many bad actions he's taken. Plus I feel like killing evil humans should absolutely be allowed if they work for a diabolical law firm. Angel just takes 5 years to figure that out.

And to be entirely fair to AtS, at least Gunn and Wesley feel the weight of taking a human life, the show acknowledges and handles grey areas better the later Buffy seasons.