No Means No – A Look At Victim Blaming In the Buffyverse Fandom

He is a serial killer who takes gleeful pleasure in murdering people and unlike Angel has not got the one thing that changes this enough for it to be OK. The chip is not a soul.

The thing with Angel's soul though is that it can be removed and when that happens Angel turns into Angelus and "takes gleeful pleasure in murdering people". Whilst a soul and the chip are two different things, they're still basically preventing Angel and Spike acting on their nature. The whole "he has a soul" excuse doesn't wipe away all the things that Spike and Angel did in their past.
 
gwenogjones
gwenogjones
I think the difference is Angel with a soul doesn't want to kill people - though he could, Spike with a chip still does - he just can't. Angel is good man who could turn bad, Spike is a vicious dog in a muzzle.
The thing with Angel's soul though is that it can be removed and when that happens Angel turns into Angelus and "takes gleeful pleasure in murdering people". Whilst a soul and the chip are two different things, they're still basically preventing Angel and Spike acting on their nature. The whole "he has a soul" excuse doesn't wipe away all the things that Spike and Angel did in their past.
Your last statement is a debatable one - are they really the same people?
 
Your last statement is a debatable one - are they really the same people?

That's the thing, the soul canon isn't really consistent. Angel and Angelus are presented as two different identities whilst Spike is presented as one identity regardless of if he's souled or not.
 
That's the thing, the soul canon isn't really consistent. Angel and Angelus are presented as two different identities whilst Spike is presented as one identity regardless of if he's souled or not.
There's a through a glass darkly narrative to vampires that is consistent. I agree to an extent but Angel/Angelus being a switch and Spike being a continuum is a result of their differing personalities leading to the differing circumstances of their ensoulement.

Also relevent to this is Buffy thinks of them both as different with and without a soul and that's relevant because it explains the forgiveness that so many seem to think is a character flaw especially as some are peed off that it isn't extended to Faith in the same way at least not at first.
 
Could it be argued that the versions of Angel and Spike we see on screen are simply Buffy's view of them and it's she who sees Angel/Angelus as two different people, and Spike as doing 'good' deeds prior to getting a soul? Ni ether vampire is seen as they really are, they are only seen through Buffy's eyes?
 
TriBel
TriBel
Can I get back to you on that? My initial response is yes and no...it's kinda complicated... :D
Could it be argued that the versions of Angel and Spike we see on screen are simply Buffy's view of them and it's she who sees Angel/Angelus as two different people, and Spike as doing 'good' deeds prior to getting a soul? Ni ether vampire is seen as they really are, they are only seen through Buffy's eyes?
That's a bit meta for me.
 
Aside from the AR which was not Buffy's fault whatsoever, Buffy knew what she was doing. She might not have liked what she was doing but she continued to do it. She went to Spike of her own volition for sex, @GoSpuffy gave examples that clearly show Buffy initiating sexual contact between her and Spike on several occasions because Buffy CHOSE to do that. You seem to be trying to whitewash Buffy's role in Spuffy which in turn takes away her agency. Why? Is it because Buffy's a woman and therefore must always be a victim in an unhealthy relationship rather than a participant? Is Buffy incapable of taking responsibility for her own actions and therefore can not be held accountable for what she does. I guess this must extend to Faith too because she's a woman. It can't be her fault that she murdered the mayor's assistant or tortured Wesley because Wesley was a bad watcher therefore it's his fault that Faith doesn't take responsibility for her actions. When Faith does actually acknowledge her wrong doing, she must've bowed to the pressure of victim blaming because how dare a woman take accountability for her own actions of her own volition.

In fact, why are you even watching Buffy? Being a slayer was FORCED on Buffy. she didn't ask for it nor choose it. Therefore, all throughout the show she is pressured and forced into doing something she doesn't want to do, she is being abused! She didn't consent to being a slayer, she is being made to fight vampires and demons because if she doesn't she'll be blamed for the world ending, all because she doesn't let herself get used! How can you watch a show that glorifies the victimisation of a young woman?

Interpretation works both ways.



Where exactly does it say Spike raped? That line could refer to him torturing, killing, even siring girls Dawn's age. Considering that's what he was doing whilst under the control of the first, it would make sense for him to relate his current actions back to something he used to do. Or are you assuming that just because he mentions the victims were female that he automatically raped them because females can't be victims of any other crime than rape?




Get off your high horse. You are trying to twist anything that anyone says which doesn't fall into your line of view into something which is not what the person is saying. Your whole "I'll let all abused women out there that if they refuse to talk about their relationship with their partner, they've brought their abuse on themselves. They'll be so thrilled" is so over the top, it's ridiculous because that is not what anyone saying at all. Let me ask you this, if a woman comes up to you and tells you that she knowingly got involved in an unhealthy relationship because it made her feel better for a little while and she acknowledges her part in that and the fact that she didn't want to talk about it because she didn't want to admit what she was actually doing to her self, would you literally turn around and say to her "I'll let all abused women out there that if they refuse to talk about their relationship with their partner, they've brought their abuse on themselves. They'll be so thrilled"?



Spuffy was one of the worst things to happen to the show IMO because of what they had to do to the characters to make it happen. Both characters were dragged down because of it.

Why don't you bring up and discuss in length what Faith did to Buffy when she stole her body, or how she raped Riley and by extension Buffy because it's her body she used. Maybe how she forced the body swap on Buffy, you know the things Buffy didn't have any say in?

You seem to keep bringing up the balcony scene as the main point of your argument. Putting that scene aside, I challenge you to discuss the rest of Spuffy's scenes in the way you have as one sided (Spike abuser/Buffy victim) and see if it still stands up to scrutiny.
 


So you're saying domestic cats are evil?

images
So what about the constant repetition of "You came back wrong" and "You belong in the dark with me" and "You dont belong in that world anymore"?

Romantic?

Spike knew how shattered Buffy was mentally and emotionally. He took full advantage to **** her. He treates her like a dog. When she came to him and got him off
Aside from the AR which was not Buffy's fault whatsoever, Buffy knew what she was doing. She might not have liked what she was doing but she continued to do it. She went to Spike of her own volition for sex, @GoSpuffy gave examples that clearly show Buffy initiating sexual contact between her and Spike on several occasions because Buffy CHOSE to do that. You seem to be trying to whitewash Buffy's role in Spuffy which in turn takes away her agency. Why? Is it because Buffy's a woman and therefore must always be a victim in an unhealthy relationship rather than a participant? Is Buffy incapable of taking responsibility for her own actions and therefore can not be held accountable for what she does. I guess this must extend to Faith too because she's a woman. It can't be her fault that she murdered the mayor's assistant or tortured Wesley because Wesley was a bad watcher therefore it's his fault that Faith doesn't take responsibility for her actions. When Faith does actually acknowledge her wrong doing, she must've bowed to the pressure of victim blaming because how dare a woman take accountability for her own actions of her own volition.

In fact, why are you even watching Buffy? Being a slayer was FORCED on Buffy. she didn't ask for it nor choose it. Therefore, all throughout the show she is pressured and forced into doing something she doesn't want to do, she is being abused! She didn't consent to being a slayer, she is being made to fight vampires and demons because if she doesn't she'll be blamed for the world ending, all because she doesn't let herself get used! How can you watch a show that glorifies the victimisation of a young woman?

Interpretation works both ways.



Where exactly does it say Spike raped? That line could refer to him torturing, killing, even siring girls Dawn's age. Considering that's what he was doing whilst under the control of the first, it would make sense for him to relate his current actions back to something he used to do. Or are you assuming that just because he mentions the victims were female that he automatically raped them because females can't be victims of any other crime than rape?




Get off your high horse. You are trying to twist anything that anyone says which doesn't fall into your line of view into something which is not what the person is saying. Your whole "I'll let all abused women out there that if they refuse to talk about their relationship with their partner, they've brought their abuse on themselves. They'll be so thrilled" is so over the top, it's ridiculous because that is not what anyone saying at all. Let me ask you this, if a woman comes up to you and tells you that she knowingly got involved in an unhealthy relationship because it made her feel better for a little while and she acknowledges her part in that and the fact that she didn't want to talk about it because she didn't want to admit what she was actually doing to her self, would you literally turn around and say to her "I'll let all abused women out there that if they refuse to talk about their relationship with their partner, they've brought their abuse on themselves. They'll be so thrilled"?



Spuffy was one of the worst things to happen to the show IMO because of what they had to do to the characters to make it happen. Both characters were dragged down because of it.

Why don't you bring up and discuss in length what Faith did to Buffy when she stole her body, or how she raped Riley and by extension Buffy because it's her body she used. Maybe how she forced the body swap on Buffy, you know the things Buffy didn't have any say in?

You seem to keep bringing up the balcony scene as the main point of your argument. Putting that scene aside, I challenge you to discuss the rest of Spuffy's scenes in the way you have as one sided (Spike abuser/Buffy victim) and see if it still stands
Aside from the AR which was not Buffy's fault whatsoever, Buffy knew what she was doing. She might not have liked what she was doing but she continued to do it. She went to Spike of her own volition for sex, @GoSpuffy gave examples that clearly show Buffy initiating sexual contact between her and Spike on several occasions because Buffy CHOSE to do that. You seem to be trying to whitewash Buffy's role in Spuffy which in turn takes away her agency. Why? Is it because Buffy's a woman and therefore must always be a victim in an unhealthy relationship rather than a participant? Is Buffy incapable of taking responsibility for her own actions and therefore can not be held accountable for what she does. I guess this must extend to Faith too because she's a woman. It can't be her fault that she murdered the mayor's assistant or tortured Wesley because Wesley was a bad watcher therefore it's his fault that Faith doesn't take responsibility for her actions. When Faith does actually acknowledge her wrong doing, she must've bowed to the pressure of victim blaming because how dare a woman take accountability for her own actions of her own volition.

In fact, why are you even watching Buffy? Being a slayer was FORCED on Buffy. she didn't ask for it nor choose it. Therefore, all throughout the show she is pressured and forced into doing something she doesn't want to do, she is being abused! She didn't consent to being a slayer, she is being made to fight vampires and demons because if she doesn't she'll be blamed for the world ending, all because she doesn't let herself get used! How can you watch a show that glorifies the victimisation of a young woman?

Interpretation works both ways.



Where exactly does it say Spike raped? That line could refer to him torturing, killing, even siring girls Dawn's age. Considering that's what he was doing whilst under the control of the first, it would make sense for him to relate his current actions back to something he used to do. Or are you assuming that just because he mentions the victims were female that he automatically raped them because females can't be victims of any other crime than rape?




Get off your high horse. You are trying to twist anything that anyone says which doesn't fall into your line of view into something which is not what the person is saying. Your whole "I'll let all abused women out there that if they refuse to talk about their relationship with their partner, they've brought their abuse on themselves. They'll be so thrilled" is so over the top, it's ridiculous because that is not what anyone saying at all. Let me ask you this, if a woman comes up to you and tells you that she knowingly got involved in an unhealthy relationship because it made her feel better for a little while and she acknowledges her part in that and the fact that she didn't want to talk about it because she didn't want to admit what she was actually doing to her self, would you literally turn around and say to her "I'll let all abused women out there that if they refuse to talk about their relationship with their partner, they've brought their abuse on themselves. They'll be so thrilled"?



Spuffy was one of the worst things to happen to the show IMO because of what they had to do to the characters to make it happen. Both characters were dragged down because of it.

Why don't you bring up and discuss in length what Faith did to Buffy when she stole her body, or how she raped Riley and by extension Buffy because it's her body she used. Maybe how she forced the body swap on Buffy, you know the things Buffy didn't have any say in?

You seem to keep bringing up the balcony scene as the main point of your argument. Putting that scene aside, I challenge you to discuss the rest of Spuffy's scenes in the way you have as one sided (Spike abuser/Buffy victim) and see if it still stands up to scrutiny.
 


So you're saying domestic cats are evil?

images
Spike in s6 is abusive from Flooded (he is back to stalking Buffy) to Seeing Red (he tries to rape Buffy) and pretty much everything in between.

Spike knows Buffy is absolutely shattered by her resurrection and he responds by stalking her and hitting on her and encouraging her to separate from her real friends. When she kisses him, all his mental and emotional helpfulness ends and he starts whinying about their kiss and how important it is. He blows through all of her boundaries and joyfully beats the hell out of her until she starts ****ing him in Smashed.

After that Buffy is literally his bitch. When she pleasures him, he is nice to her. When she pulls away, he really abuses her.

Knowing how fragil Buffy is, Spike constantly tells her that she came back wrong and she doesn't belong and HE is all she's got. Classic abuser behavior. From Flooded to Seeing Red. There is one abuser in this 'relationship'.

I dont get how Spuffies defend this. But Spuffies are cosistent, they have been defending this for 20 years now. Kudos?

For all the Spuffies who will go on and on and on about Buffy beating the hell out of Spike - do remember: Spike is a Sadomasochist (see Spike and Dru in s2) and he is sexually pleasured by being beaten up. He literally gets of on fighting, especially with slayers (Spike doesn't know which is better: killing a slayer or ****ing one). So....
Spike is getting off on Buffy's abuse. But, Buffy isn't - and Spike doesn't give a damn.
 
I have to question NoShip's remarks about BDSM. That whole sexual subculture has strict ethical guidelines around consent like safe words and limits. When someone says no or uses the safeword/safety gesture, the scene needs to end otherwise a formerly consensual act becomes non-consensual assault and rape. To their credit, virtually all BDSM practitioners recognise this and strictly observe it. Reckless tops/sadists and bottoms/masochists are ostracised and shunned within that subculture. Spike may wear leather a lot, but that may be down to his Billy Idol wannabe fixation- he saw it in the early eighties, decided he liked it and adopted the look. When it comes to relationships with non-vampires, some vampires may have a superiority complex- they're inhumanely strong, fast and can live forever, provided there are no slayers around or pointy wooden things in their vicinity. They may therefore have problems with comprehending what 'consent' means in the current modern context, particularly if they were turned in an era before the advent of modern feminist discourse around rape and sexual violence.

However, while that may be the context for Spike's actions, it does not mean that I can ever excuse what his attempted assault of Buffy in "Seeing Red." Attempted rape is attempted rape. What he tried to do was wrong. There are such things as behavioural boundaries and he crossed them because he thought he was somehow 'entitled' to. No way, William.
 
N
NoShip
If i offended BDSM people, I appologize. I was trying to show that Spike derives sexual pleasure from physical pain not insult people.
I didn't see NoShip as equating Spike with BDSM, or even rough sex. In the context presented, I saw it as that of psychopathic serial killers (Buffy even calls Spike a serial killer on a leash), or at least abusers (who inflict much suffering, sometimes willingly embracing their own suffering, and kill without necessarily being a serial killer) who commit acts of sadism and even masochism upon victims, and includes rapes, murders, and worse.

I suppose it's possible, even probable, that groups devoted to that exist (especially now, and some really disturbing stories of criminal behavior by people with such interest linking online have come out), and there was the Highpriestess of Blood, Magdalena Solis (who was primarily a sadist, but got off on suffering as well). She'd eat people in the BDSM subculture for breakfast (perhaps literally) without seeing any kinship with them, and her cult followers would serve them up to her. (They killed cops for her, and refused to testify against her.)

All in all, something different. Spike is more of the serial killer group, not well behaved BDSM. Come to think of it, that example I gave of Solis did like drinking the blood of her victims, just as Spike would.
 
That's fine and I agree. Spike is probably initially a depraved serial killer until he gets chipped by the Initiative and 'neutered'. Except then, after Willow's spell resurrects Buffy, the chip doesn't read her as 'fully human' anymore and Spike takes advantage of that loophole in its programming. And because he has a strong sense of self-entitlement and doesn't respect boundaries, he goes too far with Buffy. As for the Magdalena Solis example, ironically enough, it seems she was able to take advantage of stigma, discrimination and misunderstanding of BDSM folks and exploit it for her own murderous purposes. Exactly the same thing happened with Colin Ireland, a UK antigay serial killer who victimised London leathermen in the nineties. The core thing to comprehend here is consent and limits. Leatherfolks respect that, serial killers do not.
 
T
thrasherpix
Solis was pimped by her older brother since she was a child, who then used her to scam isolated farmers. It worked, the power went to her head, she turned the tables on everyone, and the farmers worshiped her as a literal goddess with blood sacrifice
The scene in Willow's dorm was set up to look like a college rape, you're right, but Spike's intention in that scene was not to rape Willow, it was to kill her and possibly turn her. It hardly makes it better but the point is, that scene wasn't about rape.

Vampire bites have always been metaphores for rape. Varney the Vampire was published in the 1840s (about 50 years before Bram Stoker's Dracula) and was the second or third vampire novel ever published in Europe. The entire story revolves around a metaphorical rape presented as a vampire's bite.
 
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