Question for the Bangelfolk - Spuffy in the comics

[EarthLogic]

So recently I find myself flirting with 'shipping again. I used to be an unabashed B/A fan in my teens ('cause, duh!) but have since been reluctant to call myself a 'shipper since a) for me authenticity of character trumps romantic pairing, always and b) I'm rather uncomfortable with labels as I find them rather reductive (except feminism- that one I'll stand by till my death! 🙂)

Nevertheless, I've been thinking about romantic pairings lately and while I guess my views would put me in the Bangel camp, from what I've heard about S11 the Spuffy relationship, within the context of the season, seems rather healthy and I don't know what to make of it. I wasn't into it during the show and I still can't really bring myself to be, but now I can't quite figure out why!
I should say that I actually stopped reading the comics midway through season 9. The character-destroying debacle of S8 pretty much killed any enthusiasm I had for the comics and I gave up soon after. So right now I don't know the story in detail.

So my questions for you guys are:
-do you ever find yourself reconsidering Spuffy?
-And what do you think of Spuffy in the comics as it is now?

 

[Mylie]

Interesting question!

I read the comics (though I'm a bit behind...) so I guess I tolerate them at this point. If Buffy's happy then I'm ok. That said... it will never be a relationship I'm invested in.

So to your first question... No, I'm really not. My dislike for the ship is not grounded on how healthy it is or if they can work. I simply dislike the dynamic and I'm bored by it. It doesn't make the characters interesting to me. Of course I might be incapable of giving them a chance based on how much I dislike them on the show but I don't think that's unfair. I always care about the story the most. Since how they got there is a story I really hate, them being okay-ish now won't change how I feel about the pairing. I still very much dislike their story.

Second question... as of NOW, I can't answer since I'm behind, but from what I have read and the spoilers I've seen... too much of it formy taste! I'm able to tolerate them in the sense that it won't make me stop reading at this point, but it has become the spuffy comics which I never signed up for. But that's okay I'm obviously not the target audience and I should just know better than to induce myself to a rolling eyes fest.

 

[BibliophileAnn]

Unless Bangel is going on I simply am not interested, so I wouldn't be reading about Spuffy in the comics or anywhere else. I couldn't stomach Spuffy at all in S6 and it was a depressing season IMO. I have never been a comic reader so I don't read the Buffy and Angel comics or any others. I read books and other sources. I basicly quit watching Buffy after S4 on a regular basis and only watched stray episodes here and there and crossovers. I watched all of Buffy S7. I watched all seasons of Angel but what I have read on this forum about the treatment of Angel in the comics I probably wouldn't want to read the older ones anyway.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I consider Spuffy all of the time and then time and time again and I find it an acceptable pair in the comics but it doesn't compare to what I believe Buffy and Angel share. There is a reason that there are few Bangel fans that are into the comics, the comics basically ignore Bangel. I have read SOME of the comics, I jump around. I know generally what is going on. I know that Buffy and Spike seem to be in a good relationship. I really don't know how much I like Buffy in the comics, she is a bit quirky and weird. She seems to bounce around alot emotionally. And if Buffy is happy I am happy but I also know this:

Buffy has not yet told Spike she loves him. (I do think she loves him but she hasn't told him and I wonder how intentional that is).
Buffy still has feelings for Angel - when he crosses over in Season 10; vol. 4, she tells Dawn she doesn't know how she feels, she is visibly jealous when Dawn hugs Angel and tells him she used to have a crush on him, she continues to talk about Angel in a conflicted way when they are looking for the big bad.
Angel has said in the comics that he is still not over her (nor will he ever be lets be honest).
Joss won't let Spuffy live happily ever after because he will give no one what they want so I, like Angel, don't think Spuffy will last and I am patiently waiting.

Until the day when Buffy ultimately chooses her forever partner, the hope of a Bangel reunion lives. Outside of the narrative, there are factors keeping Buffy and Angel apart. Angel has his own comic book, Joss et al make more money with both of the titles, Spuffy is super popular (why I will never understand), bringing Buffy and Angel together would mean bringing a finality to a relationship that the writers have purposes fully held in suspension for like a DECADE. Heaven forbid they would have to put their brains to good use and come up with a way to bring the two heros together. There are some really good stories to tell there.

Ultimately, my view of Spike with Buffy is colored by the show because to me, personally, that is a bigger part of the story (the comics are just additional fluff in my opinion). I understood the Buffy and Spike story during the show for what it was. A time in Buffy's life when she made bad decisions, had a toxic and unhealthy relationship. When he came back in Season 7 with a soul, the weird dance around the Spike and Buffy show was confusing. I really couldn't tell if the feeling Buffy felt most prevalent with Spike was guilt. If we are talking about the show itself, there is no one that Buffy was ever as happy with as when she is with Angel. When he comes back in Chosen she smiles for the first time in like 3 years. You literally see her whole face light up. At the end of the day, I don't think that any man/Vampire can compete with the love that Buffy has for Angel. As Joss says, their relationship transcends everything.

On being a shipper - I had no clue what "shipping" or being a "shipper" or "Bangel" was until I started my foray into the BB fandom maybe last year? I just knew I was a huge fan of the show, dabbled in the comics and to me Buffy and Angel were the end game. When I joined the boards, and realized how much opposition the Bangel ship had and I decided that I had no problem with labeling myself firmly in the ship and defending it because apparently we are quite the minority now. While I also resist labels in general, I'm kinda proud to be a part of a group which seem to share a similar interest in, what is in my opinion, a beautiful love story of two of my favorite heros. 🙂

 

[EarthLogic]

Buffy has not yet told Spike she loves him. (I do think she loves him but she hasn't told him and I wonder how intentional that is).
Buffy still has feelings for Angel - when he crosses over in Season 10; vol. 4, she tells Dawn she doesn't know how she feels, she is visibly jealous when Dawn hugs Angel and tells him she used to have a crush on him, she continues to talk about Angel in a conflicted way when they are looking for the big bad.
Angel has said in the comics that he is still not over her (nor will he ever be lets be honest).
Joss won't let Spuffy live happily ever after because he will give no one what they want so I, like Angel, don't think Spuffy will last and I am patiently waiting.

I'm sorry, I don't think I made my meaning very clear when I posed those questions. I was thinking more about what people think of the relationship itself as it is being written, not so much as it is related to Bangel (God, I really hate this name squishing!) Putting aside the question of Angel completely for the time being, what's your reading/interpretation of what the comics are giving us?

Sidenote: I'm not that concerned with a couple as 'endgame' right now. Of course people want the relationships they root for to be the lasting ones, but I do think 'shipping should really be more about being invested in a certain journey, a certain narrative that you find compelling.

bringing Buffy and Angel together would mean bringing a finality to a relationship that the writers have purposes fully held in suspension for like a DECADE. Heaven forbid they would have to put their brains to good use and come up with a way to bring the two heros together. There are some really good stories to tell there.

I agree completely. The idea of there being a 'finality' is indicative of a very narrow way of thinking about character developemnt and narrative, especially romantic narrative. It presumes a linear and finite structure as the only possibility rather than considering something circular and ever-shifting.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I'm sorry, I don't think I made my meaning very clear when I posed those questions. I was thinking more about what people think of the relationship itself as it is being written, not so much as it is related to Bangel (God, I really hate this name squishing!) Putting aside the question of Angel completely for the time being, what's your reading/interpretation of what the comics are giving us?

Well its hard to talk about one without the other because while I'm reading Spuffy's arc, I am constantly thinking about how all this could be better with Angel lol so I think the two go hand in hand.

But generally, I like that comic book Spike is so committed to Buffy. He kinda feels like to me like the loyal side kick. Still, given that there isn't much push back from him I don't find any of the relationship all that exciting. I hated the way that they "dealt" with the fall out from AR in Season 10. Buffy wanting a hug from the man wearing the face of her attempted rapist (even if she is able to distinguish the fact that soulless Spike not ensouled Spike was the attempted racist) to provide comfort for her trauma didn't seem to make alot of sense to me. But what can you do when you have something so horrible like that hanging over your head, so I understand its a difficult subject to write in a comic book setting.

The problem at the end of the day is although I like Spike's character as a funny guy, side kick, witty friend, I don't personally think of him as boyfriend material so maybe I'm projecting when I say that the thing I think Buffy loves the most about Spike is the way he loves her.

 

[Grace]

I hated the way that they "dealt" with the fall out from AR in Season 10. Buffy wanting a hug from the man wearing the face of her attempted rapist (even if she is able to distinguish the fact that soulless Spike not ensouled Spike was the attempted racist) to provide comfort for her trauma didn't seem to make alot of sense to me. But what can you do when you have something so horrible like that hanging over your head, so I understand its a difficult subject to write in a comic book setting.

I totally agree with this. I understood what they were going for in a Very Special Episode sort of way, but it felt off to me. I think I would have respected it more if Buffy had decided she needed a break and gone to therapy, even if they ended up getting back together relatively quickly.

I had a lot of problems with Spuffy in Season 10. I did not like the way they set it up so that it seemed like Buffy decided to get together with Spike because she was striking out everywhere, and hated the thought of having to do speed dating or whatever, and Spike was still hanging around, so why not? Also, the idea that Buffy was avoiding relationships by only wanting the unattainable didn't ring true to me. The examples Spike threw out, like Xander and Satsu (I won't even get into the silly detective Angel comment that made no sense), were just crushes/flings that Buffy had because she was lonely. And while it was presented as breaking out of her "pattern," it honestly seemed to me like Buffy was also only giving Spike a chance because she was lonely.

So I didn't like the development of the relationship very much. But if you look at just Season 11 on its own, I guess I don't really mind it. They've had some cute moments, and they've been helped by Gage deciding that wearing a hoodie is all Spike needs to do to get around in the desert sunlight. But Spike at this point just seems limited to filling the "souled vampire boyfriend" role.

My prediction is that Buffy will tell Spike she loves him in the final issue of this season. I think the buildup around it has been weird, though, because it's obvious at this point that Buffy loves him.

 

[Monkey Pants]

I'm not a die hard Bangel, but I'm confused about why Spuffy is such a thing in the comics. Spuffy took over and ruined the last two seasons of BTVS imo, and now it's making the comics unappealing too. I've never been sure why they've kept on with Spuffy for such a long time, I've always thought it never should have happened, or at least definitely ended after season 6. They seem to think the entire fanbase consists of Spuffy or something...

 

[brinkster130]

I'm behind in the comics because in my opinion they have become terribly boring.

I don't really ever reconsider Spuffy. I didn't find Spike's story believable so the two of them as a real couple never made sense to me. I don't think that'll ever change.

In the comics...they are boring. Both characters seem like shells of their former selves. Perhaps that's because it's hard to translate a show into a comic or perhaps it's because the couple isn't all that interesting.

 

[Deniwizard]

What I dislike about Spike and Buffy together is the fact that he still does what he does for the girl and the girl only, not for himself. I feel this character became so obnoxiously dependent on her, it’s degrading. Sometimes I even pity Spike because comic-Buffy doesn’t seem to appreciate him enough and he is still “convenient”, as she well put it in season six. I remember reading an issue during this season and Spike's face was sad in almost.every.panel! 🙁

Take Buffy away from him and what’s left? What would they do with that character? Make him leave town like Angel and repeat that story with a different setting?

Maybe that’s why I started to tolerate Spike in ATS season 5, I mean, with Team Angel he’d finally found a place where he could be on his own, maybe even find a bigger purpose, away from the girl for once. Or maybe that’s who Spike is and will be, always hooked on a woman (mother-Dru-Buffy).

Bottom line is... I really think Spike is a good guy who deserves (someone) better.

And didn’t Christos Gage say something like (and I’m TOTALLY paraphrasing here): “So I was like ‘hey, Joss, can we make Spuffy an official thing in season 10?’ And Joss was like… ‘Sure, whatever’”.

Also, hiii! I’ve just joined this forum (after two (?) years of lurking) and last night one thread took me to another and I got swallowed into a Bangel black hole -as usual- and I’ve been reading BTVS scripts for the past 3 hours and now it’s 5:30am where I live. Yay! (Sorry if I’m not clear with my comments, I’m not a native English speaker!)

 

[Mrs Gordo]

What I dislike about Spike and Buffy together is the fact that he still does what he does for the girl and the girl only, not for himself. I feel this character became so obnoxiously dependent on her, it’s degrading. Sometimes I even pity Spike because comic-Buffy doesn’t seem to appreciate him enough and he is still “convenient”, as she well put it in season six. I remember reading an issue during this season and Spike's face was sad in almost.every.panel! 🙁

Take Buffy away from him and what’s left? What would they do with that character? Make him leave town like Angel and repeat that story with a different setting?

Maybe that’s why I started to tolerate Spike in ATS season 5, I mean, with Team Angel he’d finally found a place where he could be on his own, maybe even find a bigger purpose, away from the girl for once. Or maybe that’s who Spike is and will be, always hooked on a woman (mother-Dru-Buffy).

Bottom line is... I really think Spike is a good guy who deserves (someone) better.

And didn’t Christos Gage say something like (and I’m TOTALLY paraphrasing here): “So I was like ‘hey, Joss, can we make Spuffy an official thing in season 10?’ And Joss was like… ‘Sure, whatever’”.

Also, hiii! I’ve just joined this forum (after two (?) years of lurking) and last night one thread took me to another and I got swallowed into a Bangel black hole -as usual- and I’ve been reading BTVS scripts for the past 3 hours and now it’s 5:30am where I live. Yay! (Sorry if I’m not clear with my comments, I’m not a native English speaker!)

All very good points!! I agree. Also your English looks great to me. Welcome to the boards..

 

[Mylie]

What I dislike about Spike and Buffy together is the fact that he still does what he does for the girl and the girl only, not for himself. I feel this character became so obnoxiously dependent on her, it’s degrading. Sometimes I even pity Spike because comic-Buffy doesn’t seem to appreciate him enough and he is still “convenient”, as she well put it in season six. I remember reading an issue during this season and Spike's face was sad in almost.every.panel! 🙁

Take Buffy away from him and what’s left? What would they do with that character? Make him leave town like Angel and repeat that story with a different setting?

Maybe that’s why I started to tolerate Spike in ATS season 5, I mean, with Team Angel he’d finally found a place where he could be on his own, maybe even find a bigger purpose, away from the girl for once. Or maybe that’s who Spike is and will be, always hooked on a woman (mother-Dru-Buffy).

Bottom line is... I really think Spike is a good guy who deserves (someone) better.

And didn’t Christos Gage say something like (and I’m TOTALLY paraphrasing here): “So I was like ‘hey, Joss, can we make Spuffy an official thing in season 10?’ And Joss was like… ‘Sure, whatever’”.

Also, hiii! I’ve just joined this forum (after two (?) years of lurking) and last night one thread took me to another and I got swallowed into a Bangel black hole -as usual- and I’ve been reading BTVS scripts for the past 3 hours and now it’s 5:30am where I live. Yay! (Sorry if I’m not clear with my comments, I’m not a native English speaker!)

Welcome to the boards!! Very glad you decided to delurk, I started like this as well for a few months! 😉

I always had the same problem with Spike regarding not knowing who he is. I think that's part of why I have trouble appreciating the character. It's like he doesn't really have any personality or even ANYTHING really outside of the person he's obsessing with at the moment. I too have trouble imagining what the character would do if he wasn't with Buffy. I think that's one of the reasons the ship is safe, what would they even do with Spike if they broke up? And all his decisions are based on her, it's like she's still his moral compass in a way. So maybe it's just lacking on my part, but I have no idea who that character is at its core, when he's not obsessing over someone. But I guess that's the point. He's nothing if he's not in love.

I kind of agree with @Monkey Pants though... I don't ever think in terms of «deserving» when it comes to love but if someone is undeserving of the other, it's certainly not Buffy.

 

[Grace]

I kind of agree with @Monkey Pants though... I don't ever think in terms of «deserving» when it comes to love but if someone is undeserving of the other, it's certainly not Buffy.

I don't necessarily like the d-word either 🙂, but I do think it would be interesting to see Spike with someone when Angel(us) wasn't in some way looming over the the relationship. We saw in Season 2 how willing Dru was to divide her affections between Spike and Angelus. And when Spike attacked Angelus in Becoming 2, she fought Spike and had to be dragged away unwillingly. Buffy seems to have let her friends and her recent dismal dating record convince her to get together with Spike in the comics. I'm not saying she doesn't love him, but it always seems to be a reluctant thing. ("I don't want to be the one," as she said in Touched.) She's been open with Angel about her relationship with Spike, but she's obviously still conflicted, as @dcai0830 talked about upthread.

And for Buffy, it's hard for me to get excited about relationships she needs to be talked into. Going back to at least Riley, it seems like guys (or girls!) come after her, and she generally doesn't appear all that into it at first, but eventually decides to go for it in some way.

 

[Mylie]

I don't necessarily like the d-word either 🙂, but I do think it would be interesting to see Spike with someone when Angel(us) wasn't in some way looming over the the relationship. We saw in Season 2 how willing Dru was to divide her affections between Spike and Angelus. And when Spike attacked Angelus in Becoming 2, she fought Spike and had to be dragged away unwillingly. Buffy seems to have let her friends and her recent dismal dating record convince her to get together with Spike in the comics. I'm not saying she doesn't love him, but it always seems to be a reluctant thing. ("I don't want to be the one," as she said in Touched.) She's been open with Angel about her relationship with Spike, but she's obviously still conflicted, as @dcai0830 talked about upthread.

And for Buffy, it's hard for me to get excited about relationships she needs to be talked into. Going back to at least Riley, it seems like guys (or girls!) come after her, and she generally doesn't appear all that into it at first, but eventually decides to go for it in some way.

Yes, I get what you're saying. I've always had the feeling that Riley and Spike were more into Buffy than she was into them. I don't get that feeling with Bangel. They're both very much into each other, on the same level. I do hope we'll see Buffy with someone other than Spike eventually. I'd be open to Bangel if it's done well, I just don't think the writers will go there, but I'd love to be proven otherwise!

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Yes, I get what you're saying. I've always had the feeling that Riley and Spike were more into Buffy than she was into them. I don't get that feeling with Bangel. They're both very much into each other, on the same level. I do hope we'll see Buffy with someone other than Spike eventually. I'd be open to Bangel if it's done well, I just don't think the writers will go there, but I'd love to be proven otherwise!

I really doubt they will invent a new boyfriend for Buffy. Paradoxically: On the one hand, the comics diverge radically from the show. On the other hand, they are often way to stuck in the past. That is why they paired up Xander and Dawn instead of inventing new characters for them.

One of the good things about the TV-show is that it reinvented itself every two years or so. Think about all the great new characters that came along - Tara, Anya, Dawn, Riley. The new characters in the comics are usually inconsequential one-offs like Satsu.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I really doubt they will invent a new boyfriend for Buffy. Paradoxically: On the one hand, the comics diverge radically from the show. On the other hand, they are often way to stuck in the past. That is why they paired up Xander and Dawn instead of inventing new characters for them.

One of the good things about the TV-show is that it reinvented itself every two years or so. Think about all the great new characters that came along - Tara, Anya, Dawn, Riley. The new characters in the comics are usually inconsequential one-offs like Satsu.

Oh well, guess they need to find some character we already know for Buffy to move on to when Spuffy ends, as a Bangel fan I'm just kinda like:

 

[EarthLogic]

Interesting comments, guys! Thank you.

The reason I stopped reading the comics was because the characters no longer sounded like themselves and I felt the story wasn't being developed in any meaningful way. Judging by that panel you posted @dcai0830 it still seems the case - that does not sound like Buffy at all. I share many of the same sentiments about Spike's limitations in his role as Buffy-satellite, which is why I loved him on 'Angel', and in the After the Fall comics (and honestly I think the only person who has been able to capture characters' voices as well as Joss and other ME writers was Brian Lynch.)

Perhaps it was too much to be expecting a neutral/reconsidered opinion - I certainly didn't expect someone to be waving a Spuffy flag here! 😛 Mostly I wanted to try and gauge the worthiness of the story as it stands. Judging simply on the basis of character voice it doesn't sound as if much has improved in the comics so I think I'll just stay in my happy land where they don't exist!

And didn’t Christos Gage say something like (and I’m TOTALLY paraphrasing here): “So I was like ‘hey, Joss, can we make Spuffy an official thing in season 10?’ And Joss was like… ‘Sure, whatever’”.

Tbh I haven't expected much more from Joss for a very long time.

Paradoxically: On the one hand, the comics diverge radically from the show. On the other hand, they are often way to stuck in the past.

That's actually a really good way of putting it, especially when it comes to the Angel comics, which seem to be embodying the latter quite literally. I've been vaguely following news on Angel&Faith and it seems like all they do now is go back to Angel's past. Yes Angel's a guy who is always somewhat looking back, but I hear about another issue where the 'past comes back to haunt him' and I think 'Seriously? Again? Is there honestly nothing else you can think of writing about!'
 

Oh well, guess they need to find some character we already know for Buffy to move on to when Spuffy ends, as a Bangel fan I'm just kinda like:

But would it really be worth it? For one thing they absolutely decimated Angel to the point where if you are going to take his comic storyline seriously, even simply for the sake of continuity, I don't see them being able to get past the magnitude of the Twilight arc in a believable way. For another, they've been pinballing Buffy between Angel and Spike since Chosen. Would Buffy eventually getting together with Angel even hold any meaning anymore?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Oh well, guess they need to find some character we already know for Buffy to move on to when Spuffy ends, as a Bangel fan I'm just kinda like:

I really enjoy Bangel on the show, but I find it hard to imagine how they could reintroduce that relationship. I think the only thing that would work for me would be if they got back together in the very last season of Buffy. It would be a sweet ending and it would give all you Banglers the satisfaction of having the last laugh 😛

 

[smgismyqueenjpg]

If there's anything. Angel loves Darla. 🙂

 

[EarthLogic]

If there's anything. Angel loves Darla. 🙂

😵

....

Except she's kind of dead. Of the dusty, no-longer existent variety....