Question Spike’s decision to get a soul

[deathtosaneppl]

Do you think that Spike’s decision to get a soul would have been more impactful and significant if he’d decided to get it not only for Buffy, but also for Dawn, and the Scoobies he’d learned to care about? In my head I’ve always had this idea that instead of Spike nearly raping Buffy (which in my consideration was the most impossibly OOC thing that happened in an already completely OOC season) perhaps he loses his temper after Buffy breaks it off with him, and nearly hurts Dawn, but manages to (barely) stop himself in time. Dawn berates him, and says the line that Buffy says after the rape scene “Ask me why she could never love you!” and Spike decides to get the soul not only for his love for Buffy, but for his brotherly love for Dawn and his friendship with Anya and Tara (who he seems to get along with alright).

I just feel that this would have shown he’d grown and changed not only through his love for Buffy, but also because he wanted to be the kind of man that Dawn and the others could always feel safe around, which shows a change not only for romantic love, but other love as well, which honestly would have been wonderful.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Do you think that Spike’s decision to get a soul would have been more impactful and significant if he’d decided to get it not only for Buffy, but also for Dawn, and the Scoobies he’d learned to care about? In my head I’ve always had this idea that instead of Spike nearly raping Buffy (which in my consideration was the most impossibly OOC thing that happened in an already completely OOC season) perhaps he loses his temper after Buffy breaks it off with him, and nearly hurts Dawn, but manages to (barely) stop himself in time. Dawn berates him, and says the line that Buffy says after the rape scene “Ask me why she could never love you!” and Spike decides to get the soul not only for his love for Buffy, but for his brotherly love for Dawn and his friendship with Anya and Tara (who he seems to get along with alright).

I just feel that this would have shown he’d grown and changed not only through his love for Buffy, but also because he wanted to be the kind of man that Dawn and the others could always feel safe around, which shows a change not only for romantic love, but other love as well, which honestly would have been wonderful.

Welcome to the boards! 🙂

I think anything would've been better than the AR scene. Season 6 was OOC for Spike and it's a shame that the writers decided to take his character in that direction. Season 7 was an attempt to rectify that mistake IMO.

 

[deathtosaneppl]

Welcome to the boards! 🙂

I think anything would've been better than the AR scene. Season 6 was OOC for Spike and it's a shame that the writers decided to take his character in that direction. Season 7 was an attempt to rectify that mistake IMO.

Thank you so much!

Honestly, it's so nice to actually "hear" someone else say that, I've always taken great issue with Season 6, to me it felt OOC for all the characters, but especially for Spike. I still to this day cannot wrap my head around why anyone would think that AR scene was an exceptable or even logical catalyst for his start of the quest to get the soul back. I thought perhaps it was me being biased, (because I'm a huge Spike stan), but part of the reason I joined was because a lot of people on here seem to agree that Spike's character arc was awful in that season. Most people seem to hold the assumption that only his love/guilt over Buffy would be enough to drive him to do it, but I have no doubt that if they'd kept with the characterization of season 5 Spike, he could have come around for any number of reasons.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Thank you so much!

Honestly, it's so nice to actually "hear" someone else say that, I've always taken great issue with Season 6, to me it felt OOC for all the characters, but especially for Spike. I still to this day cannot wrap my head around why anyone would think that AR scene was an exceptable or even logical catalyst for his start of the quest to get the soul back. I thought perhaps it was me being biased, (because I'm a huge Spike stan), but part of the reason I joined was because a lot of people on here seem to agree that Spike's character arc was awful in that season. Most people seem to hold the assumption that only his love/guilt over Buffy would be enough to drive him to do it, but I have no doubt that if they'd kept with the characterization of season 5 Spike, he could have come around for any number of reasons.

Agreed. Literally it's only SMG's and JM's talent that enabled Spike and Buffy to retain any likeability throughout season 6 once the Spuffy plotline took hold.

 

[Slayerofslayers]

Yes I think there were other things that could have compelled him to get his soul which would be better because it wouldn't have been out of character for him and ruin his relationships with Buffy and the other scoobies. I think that the way Spike was going in the beginning of season six he could have become a good person without having to go get a soul but the writers didn't keep going in that direction unfortunately. So I would have preferred if he didn't get his soul but just keep changing for the better throughout the final two seasons. But I would have really liked if he went to get a soul for Dawn and the others instead of just Buffy without the AR happening and the destructive Spuffy affair that happened throughout season six because he cares deeply for Buffy and Dawn. It would make sense to his character since the shows have shown that when he cares about someone he goes the extra mile for them and treats them kindly like he was towards Drusilla and his mother (unlike the Spuffy relationship in season six).

Welcome to the Boards! Spike and Drusilla are my top two favorite characters so another Spike fan is always awesome. 🙂

 

[thrasherpix]

I like that idea.

To me, both seasons 6 and 7 had some interesting ideas, but they were poorly executed. I've said more than once they should've taken a year to hammer them out better (though I expect that's a luxury not lightly given, even when available).

 

[deathtosaneppl]

It would make sense to his character since the shows have shown that when he cares about someone he goes the extra mile for them and treats them kindly like he was towards Drusilla and his mother (unlike the Spuffy relationship in season six).

Welcome to the Boards! Spike and Drusilla are my top two favorite characters so another Spike fan is always awesome. 🙂

I've always pointed that out to people, that it doesn't make sense at all in accordance with Spike's previous behavior. Even after Spike was turned there was enough humanity in him to want to save his mother, and when she became something he knew she would hate, he spared her living a life he knew she would not want, and felt immense guilt for it years and years later. He took care of a madwoman for a hundred years, tried to help her be as "sane" and healthy as possible, and he protected Dawn even not knowing that Buffy would return, and yet somehow it makes sense that he would A.) try to drag Buffy into the dark with him and then B.) try and rape her. Like?? They're telling me that Spike, Spike who nearly broke apart, Spike who nearly dusted himself in grief, Spike who only kept living because he’d made a promise to protect Dawn, that Spike, was going to try and draw Buffy back into the dark with him, after seeing the light completely ripped from her broken corpse?? And after all the evidence we've had to the contrary, the writers try to convince us that he'd be capable of raping Buffy? If he had enough humanity and goodness to refuse his mother and save her from a life of awfulness, you can't tell me he would be capable of the AR scene.

Thank you! I'm so glad to see all the Spike love, it's very refreshing.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Welcome to the forum! This place doesn't get as gladiatorial as the Roman forum of 2000 years ago, but it has its moments.

There is almost universal agreement that Spike and Buffy went through what I call their "Nine and a Half Weeks" phase in Season 6 with Spike playing the Mickey Rourke part and Buffy playing the Kim Basinger part. This is not a healthy relationship, but drama does not arise from healthy relationships and the writers had been boxed in by not wanting to repeat what had been done before. Given that Buffy is already alienated from the scoobies, the darkness of Season 6 is not a problem (for me at least) because it is easy to imagine things going exactly the way they did. The only person Buffy could talk to became her confidante then her lover. What do you do as a writer in a series that hasn't been done already? There were some standalone episodes like "Doublemeat Palace" but for the most part, there were three main character arcs, one each for Buffy, Spike and Willow. Add the fact that there were several writers who had their own distinct style but who had to create these arcs over several stories seamlessly and you can see where things can go off the rails quite easily.

Somebody had the idea that Spike should get his soul. But how do you convince a vampire to get a soul? You make him do something so hideous that he can't stand to remain what he is. Your suggestion of something that affected Dawn is a good one - a few people second-guess how it could have been better and that would be one suggestion. Joss should have known that a lot of women get raped in their lives - some say 25% of the female population - and to put the attempted rape on screen would alienate them and a lot of people who had known victims as well as those who had been victims. James and Sarah did not like playing these scenes and not many people liked watching them. But given the development of the story where Buffy has already broken up with Spike and Spike won't take "no" for an answer, the AR does not seem as out of character as some people have stated. It is perfectly in character for Spike to not accept being dumped, especially because it happened when she was on a mission with Riley and the use of force is always the foremost solution in his mind. The story makes sense as it was written because you could easily follow Spike's thought processes and you can understand how things got to the state they were in during "Seeing Red".

 

[deathtosaneppl]

Welcome to the forum! This place doesn't get as gladiatorial as the Roman forum of 2000 years ago, but it has its moments.

There is almost universal agreement that Spike and Buffy went through what I call their "Nine and a Half Weeks" phase in Season 6 with Spike playing the Mickey Rourke part and Buffy playing the Kim Basinger part. This is not a healthy relationship, but drama does not arise from healthy relationships and the writers had been boxed in by not wanting to repeat what had been done before. Given that Buffy is already alienated from the scoobies, the darkness of Season 6 is not a problem (for me at least) because it is easy to imagine things going exactly the way they did. The only person Buffy could talk to became her confidante then her lover. What do you do as a writer in a series that hasn't been done already? There were some standalone episodes like "Doublemeat Palace" but for the most part, there were three main character arcs, one each for Buffy, Spike and Willow. Add the fact that there were several writers who had their own distinct style but who had to create these arcs over several stories seamlessly and you can see where things can go off the rails quite easily.

Somebody had the idea that Spike should get his soul. But how do you convince a vampire to get a soul? You make him do something so hideous that he can't stand to remain what he is. Your suggestion of something that affected Dawn is a good one - a few people second-guess how it could have been better and that would be one suggestion. Joss should have known that a lot of women get raped in their lives - some say 25% of the female population - and to put the attempted rape on screen would alienate them and a lot of people who had known victims as well as those who had been victims. James and Sarah did not like playing these scenes and not many people liked watching them. But given the development of the story where Buffy has already broken up with Spike and Spike won't take "no" for an answer, the AR does not seem as out of character as some people have stated. It is perfectly in character for Spike to not accept being dumped, especially because it happened when she was on a mission with Riley and the use of force is always the foremost solution in his mind. The story makes sense as it was written because you could easily follow Spike's thought processes and you can understand how things got to the state they were in during "Seeing Red".

Thank you, happy to be here! Oh dear, well I hope I can avoid any intense sparring, 🙂

While I understand nine and a half weeks as a parallel, I would argue on the count that Spike would be completely Mickey. As unbelievable as this may seem, I don't think it was ever just about the sex for Spike. I think he wanted Buffy anyway she'd let him have her, and in the nine and half weeks comparison she'd be closer to Mickey in the aspect that she really doesn't want to share any of her life with Spike besides the sex, while I'm sure he'd have been happy to. We do get one instance where he offers handcuffs to Buffy, but for me that's always felt like he was feeling her out for whether or not she actually trusted him, which, (rightly so) she did not. Neither here nor there, I suppose the analogy makes sense overall.

I wouldn't say that drama never comes from healthy relationships, but I understand your point, and I agree, the darkness of Season 6 is not an issue. I think it was good to explore some darker sides of the characters. My problem however, comes from the way that it was handled. I think Season 6 could have been exceptional, but it was all over the place and unfocused, and there was not a natural segue from season 5 to season 6 in terms of characterization imo. It doesn't surprise me Buffy was distant from the scoobies, it doesn't surprise me she confides in Spike, but it does bother me that her depression/possible PTSD is very poorly handled, and Spike's actions seem discordant from his previous behaviour in regards to the women he loves. I understand that it would be hard for him to accept no for an answer, and honestly I expected a pretty vicious reaction from him. But never in all my days would I have expected rape. Speaking of alienating viewers, I was very young when I first watched that episode, and I didn't get more than 10 seconds into that scene before I turned it off and stopped watching BtVS for YEARS. I was appalled, not only because Spike was my favorite character, but because, even at such a young age, it didn't make sense to me. (And it still doesn't. I have never watched that full scene and I never will.)

As an adult with a little better grasp (though I am not an expert by any means) of character arcs, plot devices, narratives, etc, it was clear to me that the chip not working when it came to Buffy was a cheap plot device only put in for the sole sake of making that rape scene possible. It's never addressed again. (I might even go so far as to say that it was a subtle way of "punishing the slut" for having sex with the "bad" guy in the first place.) Which leads me to believe that there was ample time to come up with an alternative plot line, that didn't use Buffy's near rape as a plot point to advance the male character's narrative. That's why it infuriates me so much, because maybe it wasn't completely out of character (Though it is to me. I can see to a certain extent how Spike's demon would be confused by the back and forth Buffy has been giving him, but I really don't think, with his history of how he treats the women he truly cares about, he would be capable of what he was going to do, or that he wouldn't have stopped himself. I might have been able to handle that scene if he had but... I digress) but it was completely unnecessary and abominable.

There were so many other ways to handle it, and while I also understand you saying the writers not wanting to go where they had gone before, I feel it would have been better for the overarching plot if Spuffy had only very gradually happened over Season 6, and that the characterization would have suffered a lot less for it imo.

 

[Guy]

I've always pointed that out to people, that it doesn't make sense at all in accordance with Spike's previous behavior. Even after Spike was turned there was enough humanity in him to want to save his mother, and when she became something he knew she would hate, he spared her living a life he knew she would not want, and felt immense guilt for it years and years later. He took care of a madwoman for a hundred years, tried to help her be as "sane" and healthy as possible, and he protected Dawn even not knowing that Buffy would return, and yet somehow it makes sense that he would A.) try to drag Buffy into the dark with him and then B.) try and rape her. Like?? They're telling me that Spike, Spike who nearly broke apart, Spike who nearly dusted himself in grief, Spike who only kept living because he’d made a promise to protect Dawn, that Spike, was going to try and draw Buffy back into the dark with him, after seeing the light completely ripped from her broken corpse?? And after all the evidence we've had to the contrary, the writers try to convince us that he'd be capable of raping Buffy? If he had enough humanity and goodness to refuse his mother and save her from a life of awfulness, you can't tell me he would be capable of the AR scene.

Thank you! I'm so glad to see all the Spike love, it's very refreshing.

As a huge fan of Spike, and a huge fan of season 6, I must disagree. While Spike had his good qualities, it also can't be ignored that he was a soulless vampire, who spent decades raping and murdering. And it should be noted that Spike's approach to Drusilla also indicated the same rape-y attitudes that he showed in season 6 - "I want Dru back, I just gotta be the man I was. The man she loved. I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, and torture her, until she likes me again". The attempted rape was ENTIRELY in-character for him.

 

[Slayerofslayers]

I've always pointed that out to people, that it doesn't make sense at all in accordance with Spike's previous behavior. Even after Spike was turned there was enough humanity in him to want to save his mother, and when she became something he knew she would hate, he spared her living a life he knew she would not want, and felt immense guilt for it years and years later. He took care of a madwoman for a hundred years, tried to help her be as "sane" and healthy as possible, and he protected Dawn even not knowing that Buffy would return, and yet somehow it makes sense that he would A.) try to drag Buffy into the dark with him and then B.) try and rape her. Like?? They're telling me that Spike, Spike who nearly broke apart, Spike who nearly dusted himself in grief, Spike who only kept living because he’d made a promise to protect Dawn, that Spike, was going to try and draw Buffy back into the dark with him, after seeing the light completely ripped from her broken corpse?? And after all the evidence we've had to the contrary, the writers try to convince us that he'd be capable of raping Buffy? If he had enough humanity and goodness to refuse his mother and save her from a life of awfulness, you can't tell me he would be capable of the AR scene.

Thank you! I'm so glad to see all the Spike love, it's very refreshing.

I completely agree with all of this. People try to say that it's in character for Spike for all of the Spuffy stuff and the AR because he's a soulless evil vampire but from the flashbacks we see in "Fool for Love" his human self was a hopeless romantic who wrote poetry and this carried on to his soulless self with him being devoted to Drusilla. Even though Angelus would sleep with Drusilla Spike remained faithful to her and continued to be her lover even though it hurt him that she would do that. He was concerned for her the entire time she was sick and did everything he could to make her well again. So you would think he would be the same way with Buffy since he says he's in love with her (he kind of was towards the end of season five and the first part of season six) but everything else in season five and season six contradicted his romantic nature. I don't think Spike would ever want to do anything bad to the woman he loved, and he definitely wouldn't do anything as horrible as the AR to the woman he loved. That's what makes Spike such a great character because he's evil but he also has a lot of humanity, more so than most vampires so him treating Buffy so badly throughout season five and season six is a great disservice to this character. If the writers had stayed consistent with his character, he would treat Buffy similar to Drusilla and how he was treating her the last part of season five and the first part of season six. The writers especially shouldn't have had him treat Buffy that way when he was treating her so well like all of the examples you mentioned and the way he reacted to her death and everything.

 

[deathtosaneppl]

As a huge fan of Spike, and a huge fan of season 6, I must disagree. While Spike had his good qualities, it also can't be ignored that he was a soulless vampire, who spent decades raping and murdering. And it should be noted that Spike's approach to Drusilla also indicated the same rape-y attitudes that he showed in season 6 - "I want Dru back, I just gotta be the man I was. The man she loved. I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, and torture her, until she likes me again". The attempted rape was ENTIRELY in-character for him.

Another Spike stan, hooray! 🙂 While I completely respect your interpretation, I never, ever got any "rape-y attitudes" from Spike towards Drusilla. In my understanding of the character (merely from the show, I've only ever read a bit of the season 8 comics so I'm not up on that lore) that wasn't something Spike was keen on. I think he put rape in that category of playing with food and Angelus' mind games, which he didn't want to participate in. His thing has always been violence, the thrill of an honorable kill, some torture on the side, etc.

Which is why, to me, the AR scene came completely out of nowhere. Spike was soulless, yes, he was a murderer, yes, but I never took him for a rapist. In all honesty, up until Buffy, it makes sense to me that Dru and Harm were about the extent of the women he had. He seemed to me a very monogamous type guy, which is another reason why I find it hard to believe he raped any of his victims. I'd assume he'd feel like that was "cheating" on Dru, the same way she'd "cheat" on him with Angelus. As for raping Dru, again, I never got that vibe. He cared for her, protected her, and while maybe they got into some kinky BDSM hijinks, I don't think he'd force himself on her, knowing what Angelus had done to her. But, that's just my opinion.

I will say I expected a very vicious reaction from him, (soulless evil vampire of course), perhaps going back to his old ways, trying to find a way to get the chip out again, siding with another "big bad", or even lashing out at someone he cared about (like in my example from the original post). But the AR? That I will never understand because in accordance with all we know about Spike, it feels, abrupt, sloppy, and heavy handed, a complete deviation from the character we were given in the first 5 seasons.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

As a huge fan of Spike, and a huge fan of season 6, I must disagree. While Spike had his good qualities, it also can't be ignored that he was a soulless vampire, who spent decades raping and murdering. And it should be noted that Spike's approach to Drusilla also indicated the same rape-y attitudes that he showed in season 6 - "I want Dru back, I just gotta be the man I was. The man she loved. I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, and torture her, until she likes me again". The attempted rape was ENTIRELY in-character for him.

I disagree. It was never confirmed or strongly implied that Spike had raped. We never got a flashback scene like we did with Angelus and the gypsy girl where it was all but stated outright what he was going to do to her whilst Darla was there watching. The closest we got was an ambiguous quote in season 7 which is pretty much open to interpretation and two scenes which you could argue had rapey undertones but in-show weren't about rape eg Spike in Willow's dorm room. On the surface that scene could be played as a rape scene but in actual fact Spike only wanted to kill and possibly sire Willow (doesn't exactly make it better but the point is Spike's intentions weren't rape).

Also Spike had been with Dru for years and it's strongly implied that they had a bit of a kinky sex life. Spike's not an idiot, he knows Dru and what would work best to get her to go back to him. There's a difference between "torturing" her in a way he knows she'd enjoy and actual torture designed to cause pain and suffering. Hurting Dru in a bad way would not make her want to go back to him which defeats the purpose of his objective.

Also it would be a terrible idea to make one of your lead male characters a serial rapist. Angel got away with it because he and Angelus are treated as two separate characters within the show eg soulless Angel is not Angel but Angelus. Spike does not get that treatment. Soulless Spike is still Spike regardless if he has a soul or not.
 

Even though Angelus would sleep with Drusilla Spike remained faithful to her and continued to be her lover even though it hurt him that she would do that.

As I've said before, I think there is an underlying issue with the Angelus/Drusilla dynamic. Spike does not hold Drusilla responsible at all for that, he lays the blame completely at Angelus' door. However when Drusilla cheats on him with the chaos demon he does hold her accountable for that so it's not just a case of him turning a blind eye to Dru's part in things.

I think what hurt Spike the most about Angelus and Dru sleeping together is that Spike knew Angelus was taking advantage of Dru but he was powerless to stop it. Add in the factor of vampire hierarchy and the fact that Angelus probably trained Dru to be submissive to him, and you've got a situation where actually Dru comes out as a victim to Angelus' manipulations. Also Angelus was deliberately sleeping with her in season 2 to wind Spike up, knowing Spike wasn't in a position to do anything about it because he was wheelchair bound. Of course Spike was getting pissed off and allied with Buffy to get his own back on Angelus, but there was also a protective action in that as well because he negotiated a get out of jail free card for himself and Drusilla. Angelus was essentially using Dru as a bed warmer when Darla wasn't around.
 

Another Spike stan, hooray! 🙂 While I completely respect your interpretation, I never, ever got any "rape-y attitudes" from Spike towards Drusilla. In my understanding of the character (merely from the show, I've only ever read a bit of the season 8 comics so I'm not up on that lore) that wasn't something Spike was keen on. I think he put rape in that category of playing with food and Angelus' mind games, which he didn't want to participate in. His thing has always been violence, the thrill of an honorable kill, some torture on the side, etc.

Which is why, to me, the AR scene came completely out of nowhere. Spike was soulless, yes, he was a murderer, yes, but I never took him for a rapist. In all honesty, up until Buffy, it makes sense to me that Dru and Harm were about the extent of the women he had. He seemed to me a very monogamous type guy, which is another reason why I find it hard to believe he raped any of his victims. I'd assume he'd feel like that was "cheating" on Dru, the same way she'd "cheat" on him with Angelus. As for raping Dru, again, I never got that vibe. He cared for her, protected her, and while maybe they got into some kinky BDSM hijinks, I don't think he'd force himself on her, knowing what Angelus had done to her. But, that's just my opinion.

I will say I expected a very vicious reaction from him, (soulless evil vampire of course), perhaps going back to his old ways, trying to find a way to get the chip out again, siding with another "big bad", or even lashing out at someone he cared about (like in my example from the original post). But the AR? That I will never understand because in accordance with all we know about Spike, it feels, abrupt, sloppy, and heavy handed, a complete deviation from the character we were given in the first 5 seasons.

Agree with all of this apart from the part of Dru "cheating" with Angelus but I've listed my interpretation of that dynamic above. I agree that Spike would view rape as "cheating" on Dru because he does seem like a monogamous type of guy.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

While I understand nine and a half weeks as a parallel, I would argue on the count that Spike would be completely Mickey. As unbelievable as this may seem, I don't think it was ever just about the sex for Spike. I think he wanted Buffy anyway she'd let him have her, and in the nine and half weeks comparison she'd be closer to Mickey in the aspect that she really doesn't want to share any of her life with Spike besides the sex, while I'm sure he'd have been happy to. We do get one instance where he offers handcuffs to Buffy, but for me that's always felt like he was feeling her out for whether or not she actually trusted him, which, (rightly so) she did not. Neither here nor there, I suppose the analogy makes sense overall.

This is reminiscent of Buffy playing the murderer in "I Only Have Eyes for You" where she could have been expected to take the opposite part, the part of the teacher. Buffy's hardcore rejection of the idea that there should be any forgiveness for a murderer is what made her the one with the gun. I still see Spike as the instigator of the Season 6 relationship and things would not have gone the way they did if Buffy was actually the one in charge. Spike would have nothing to lose by shouting about their relationship from the rooftops whereas Buffy would be ostracised by the scoobies and anyone else she knew. She only manages to talk to Tara because Tara is the only one whose immediate response would not be, "OMG have you sunk that low?"

However, we get this exchange when Buffy is not there in "Intervention 5ABB18":

Xander: Buffy's gone insane.
Willow Rosenberg: What? What'd she do?
Xander: Brace yourself. You're not gonna believe it.
Tara: Everyone, before we jump all over her, people do strange things when someone they love dies. When I lost my mother, I-I did some pretty dumb stuff, like lying to my family and staying out all night.
Anya: Buffy's boinking Spike.
Willow Rosenberg: Oh. Well, Tara-Tara's right. Grief can be powerful, and we shouldn't judge...
Tara: What, are you kidding? She's nuts!

 

[GoSpuffy]

I wish that anything other than the A/R scene had motivated Spike to get his soul. I like the idea of him doing it for Dawn. I wonder if the writers knew how much hatred so many people would have towards such a fabulous character because of that scene. As much as it bugs me I tell myself that taking risks and putting forward such contentious issues is part of what made the show great and has us talking about it all these years later.

 

[Slayerofslayers]

I disagree. It was never confirmed or strongly implied that Spike had raped. We never got a flashback scene like we did with Angelus and the gypsy girl where it was all but stated outright what he was going to do to her whilst Darla was there watching. The closest we got was an ambiguous quote in season 7 which is pretty much open to interpretation and two scenes which you could argue had rapey undertones but in-show weren't about rape eg Spike in Willow's dorm room. On the surface that scene could be played as a rape scene but in actual fact Spike only wanted to kill and possibly sire Willow (doesn't exactly make it better but the point is Spike's intentions weren't rape).

Also Spike had been with Dru for years and it's strongly implied that they had a bit of a kinky sex life. Spike's not an idiot, he knows Dru and what would work best to get her to go back to him. There's a difference between "torturing" her in a way he knows she'd enjoy and actual torture designed to cause pain and suffering. Hurting Dru in a bad way would not make her want to go back to him which defeats the purpose of his objective.

Also it would be a terrible idea to make one of your lead male characters a serial rapist. Angel got away with it because he and Angelus are treated as two separate characters within the show eg soulless Angel is not Angel but Angelus. Spike does not get that treatment. Soulless Spike is still Spike regardless if he has a soul or not.
 


As I've said before, I think there is an underlying issue with the Angelus/Drusilla dynamic. Spike does not hold Drusilla responsible at all for that, he lays the blame completely at Angelus' door. However when Drusilla cheats on him with the chaos demon he does hold her accountable for that so it's not just a case of him turning a blind eye to Dru's part in things.

I think what hurt Spike the most about Angelus and Dru sleeping together is that Spike knew Angelus was taking advantage of Dru but he was powerless to stop it. Add in the factor of vampire hierarchy and the fact that Angelus probably trained Dru to be submissive to him, and you've got a situation where actually Dru comes out as a victim to Angelus' manipulations. Also Angelus was deliberately sleeping with her in season 2 to wind Spike up, knowing Spike wasn't in a position to do anything about it because he was wheelchair bound. Of course Spike was getting pissed off and allied with Buffy to get his own back on Angelus, but there was also a protective action in that as well because he negotiated a get out of jail free card for himself and Drusilla. Angelus was essentially using Dru as a bed warmer when Darla wasn't around.
 


Agree with all of this apart from the part of Dru "cheating" with Angelus but I've listed my interpretation of that dynamic above. I agree that Spike would view rape as "cheating" on Dru because he does seem like a monogamous type of guy.

I completely agree with everything you say in this post, as I usually do lol. In regards to what I said that you replied to, I just meant that Spike could have held it against her or left her when Angelus slept with her because it's hard to deal with that when it's the person you are with and love but he didn't because he loves her. And some people wouldn't want to put up with that situation because they would view it as their partner cheating but he never viewed it as cheating and remained faithful and devoted to her which a lot of people wouldn't do but that's the type of person that he is and that's how much he cares about Dru.

 

[deathtosaneppl]

I think what hurt Spike the most about Angelus and Dru sleeping together is that Spike knew Angelus was taking advantage of Dru but he was powerless to stop it. Add in the factor of vampire hierarchy and the fact that Angelus probably trained Dru to be submissive to him, and you've got a situation where actually Dru comes out as a victim to Angelus' manipulations. Also Angelus was deliberately sleeping with her in season 2 to wind Spike up, knowing Spike wasn't in a position to do anything about it because he was wheelchair bound. Of course Spike was getting pissed off and allied with Buffy to get his own back on Angelus, but there was also a protective action in that as well because he negotiated a get out of jail free card for himself and Drusilla. Angelus was essentially using Dru as a bed warmer when Darla wasn't around.

I had actually never thought of it that way before and I'm glad you pointed that out. It would make a lot more sense that while Spike was jealous, he was also angry that Angelus was still hurting Dru and playing with her mind. That's actually an amazing parallel that I never thought about before. We see in flashbacks that Spike felt powerless against Angelus, and against what Angelus did to Dru, and the wheelchair was a direct mirror of that, showing us in a more physical sense that Spike always felt helpless against Angelus, until later when he completely subverts the pattern when we discover that he's been faking for the majority of the time to fool Angelus. That... that makes those scenes even more powerful and amazing for me, really, thank you for enlightening me.

 

[Guy]

Another Spike stan, hooray! 🙂 While I completely respect your interpretation, I never, ever got any "rape-y attitudes" from Spike towards Drusilla. In my understanding of the character (merely from the show, I've only ever read a bit of the season 8 comics so I'm not up on that lore) that wasn't something Spike was keen on. I think he put rape in that category of playing with food and Angelus' mind games, which he didn't want to participate in. His thing has always been violence, the thrill of an honorable kill, some torture on the side, etc.

Which is why, to me, the AR scene came completely out of nowhere. Spike was soulless, yes, he was a murderer, yes, but I never took him for a rapist. In all honesty, up until Buffy, it makes sense to me that Dru and Harm were about the extent of the women he had. He seemed to me a very monogamous type guy, which is another reason why I find it hard to believe he raped any of his victims. I'd assume he'd feel like that was "cheating" on Dru, the same way she'd "cheat" on him with Angelus. As for raping Dru, again, I never got that vibe. He cared for her, protected her, and while maybe they got into some kinky BDSM hijinks, I don't think he'd force himself on her, knowing what Angelus had done to her. But, that's just my opinion.

I will say I expected a very vicious reaction from him, (soulless evil vampire of course), perhaps going back to his old ways, trying to find a way to get the chip out again, siding with another "big bad", or even lashing out at someone he cared about (like in my example from the original post). But the AR? That I will never understand because in accordance with all we know about Spike, it feels, abrupt, sloppy, and heavy handed, a complete deviation from the character we were given in the first 5 seasons.

I disagree. It was never confirmed or strongly implied that Spike had raped. We never got a flashback scene like we did with Angelus and the gypsy girl where it was all but stated outright what he was going to do to her whilst Darla was there watching. The closest we got was an ambiguous quote in season 7 which is pretty much open to interpretation and two scenes which you could argue had rapey undertones but in-show weren't about rape eg Spike in Willow's dorm room. On the surface that scene could be played as a rape scene but in actual fact Spike only wanted to kill and possibly sire Willow (doesn't exactly make it better but the point is Spike's intentions weren't rape).

Also Spike had been with Dru for years and it's strongly implied that they had a bit of a kinky sex life. Spike's not an idiot, he knows Dru and what would work best to get her to go back to him. There's a difference between "torturing" her in a way he knows she'd enjoy and actual torture designed to cause pain and suffering. Hurting Dru in a bad way would not make her want to go back to him which defeats the purpose of his objective.

I think that the idea that Spike was not a rapist is just... Very naive. Are you saying that he was capable of murdering and torturing people, FOR FUN, and yet rape was too depraved for him? That's ludicrous to me.

Is it because Spike was a romantic, and wouldn't hurt people he loved? Again, I disagree - in 6x09 Spike punches his beloved Buffy repeatedly, in 2x22 he choked Dru to the point of unconsciousness (Sure, he did it for her safety, in his eyes, but Spike also believed that he was acting in Buffy's best interests in season 6 - "let yourself love me", "you belong in the dark with me", etc... Spike initially didn't think that he was hurting Buffy in 'Seeing Red', which is why he was so clearly horrified when he realized what he did), and so on...
Spike's torture of Dru doesn't count because she was into it? Even if we accept this idea, don't you see how that would make Spike's relationship with Buffy incredibly twisted? Spike is used to someone how likes torture, so OF COURSE he'd be disfunctional with Buffy, who does NOT want the things that Dru wanted.
Spike wasn't into rape, that was Angelus' thing? Let's not forget that Angelus was Spike's "Yoda", who taught him everything he knows, and turned him into a monster (in Spike's own words). I think it's naive to believe that Angelus never taught Spike to torture and rape. Sure, we never SAW Spike rape before, but come on. Implications were clearly made, and in Spike's own words, "we're vampires". Vampires were always a metaphor for rape in the Buffyverse, and 'Seeing Red' just pulled the curtain away.
And don't forget stuff like 'Crush', in which Spike chained up Buffy and threatened to kill her if she doesn't reciprocate his feelings, or all those times that Spike begged Buffy to sleep with him or kiss him or just give him a chance. Come on - the rape-y vibe was always there.

The idea that the attempted rape "Came out of nowhere" is just ridiculous to me. In Spike's own words: "You're what? Shocked and disappointed? I'm evil".

gifs from: little-regina-blue.tumblr.com/post/75090285930/how-to-be-a-cool-vampire

Also it would be a terrible idea to make one of your lead male characters a serial rapist. Angel got away with it because he and Angelus are treated as two separate characters within the show eg soulless Angel is not Angel but Angelus. Spike does not get that treatment. Soulless Spike is still Spike regardless if he has a soul or not.

That doesn't make sense. Spike and Angel are both ensouled vampires who used to be soulless. The same policies should be applied to both. If you believe that Angel and Angelus are different people, than so are ensouled Spike and soulless Spike. If you believe that Angel and Angelus are the same person, than the same is true of Spike.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I think that the idea that Spike was not a rapist is just... Very naive. Are you saying that he was capable of murdering and torturing people, FOR FUN, and yet rape was too depraved for him? That's ludicrous to me.

I don't think it's naïve. There's always a line people don't cross, even in the real world. Also I don't think Spike rapes because he'd consider it "cheating" on Dru which is something he wouldn't do (even though rape is about power rather than sex).

Is it because Spike was a romantic, and wouldn't hurt people he loved? Again, I disagree - in 6x09 Spike punches his beloved Buffy repeatedly, in 2x22 he choked Dru to the point of unconsciousness (Sure, he did it for her safety, in his eyes, but Spike also believed that he was acting in Buffy's best interests in season 6 - "let yourself love me", "you belong in the dark with me", etc... Spike initially didn't think that he was hurting Buffy in 'Seeing Red', which is why he was so clearly horrified when he realized what he did), and so on...
Spike's torture of Dru doesn't count because she was into it? Even if we accept this idea, don't you see how that would make Spike's relationship with Buffy incredibly twisted? Spike is used to someone how likes torture, so OF COURSE he'd be disfunctional with Buffy, who does NOT want the things that Dru wanted.

Spuffy was completely twisted from the word go and there were no clear boundaries set in their relationship. IMO Spike became OOC as soon as the Spuffy plotline took hold. When you compare how Spike acted with Drusilla to how he acted with Buffy, it's like two different characters

Spike wasn't into rape, that was Angelus' thing? Let's not forget that Angelus was Spike's "Yoda", who taught him everything he knows, and turned him into a monster (in Spike's own words). I think it's naive to believe that Angelus never taught Spike to torture and rape. Sure, we never SAW Spike rape before, but come on. Implications were clearly made, and in Spike's own words, "we're vampires". Vampires were always a metaphor for rape in the Buffyverse, and 'Seeing Red' just pulled the curtain away.
And don't forget stuff like 'Crush', in which Spike chained up Buffy and threatened to kill her if she doesn't reciprocate his feelings, or all those times that Spike begged Buffy to sleep with him or kiss him or just give him a chance. Come on - the rape-y vibe was always there.

Angelus may have taught Spike the ropes to being a vampire but he would've carved out his own style separate from Angelus. Spike was still very William like in the early days and hopelessly devoted to Dru. Angelus was more of the torture them and kill them slowly type whereas Spike preferred quick kills for the rush. Angelus may have taught torture but I don't think he would've taught Spike rape. He may have tried but I think Spike would've declined and I don't think it is naïve to believe that. In "The Girl in Question", Angelus offered Spike the bride and Spike turned the offer down because he'd rather be hunting with Dru instead.

The only way I can describe it is that if Angelus chose to rape, Spike wouldn't condemn him for it but Spike wouldn't do rape himself because he's not into that type of thing. He'd rather be killing with Dru.

The idea that the attempted rape "Came out of nowhere" is just ridiculous to me. In Spike's own words: "You're what? Shocked and disappointed? I'm evil".

gifs from: little-regina-blue.tumblr.com/post/75090285930/how-to-be-a-cool-vampire

In later seasons the "I'm evil" front was full of bravado but wasn't actually true. Kind of how Spike gave that speech to Buffy that ended something like "I never liked you anyway and you've got stupid hair" (I can't remember the exact quote but it was after the "Out for a walk, bitch" line). Spike was still trying to pretend he was a big bad with the "I'm evil" excuse even though it so obviously wasn't true.

That doesn't make sense. Spike and Angel are both ensouled vampires who used to be soulless. The same policies should be applied to both. If you believe that Angel and Angelus are different people, than so are ensouled Spike and soulless Spike. If you believe that Angel and Angelus are the same person, than the same is true of Spike.

Angelus was always treated by the show as a different entity to Angel, the distinction was always clear. Spike never got that distinction.. You're right that it should be a "together or not at all" situation- they're either the same person regardless of soul status or they're not but one can't be treated one way and the other treated another way. However, that's exactly what happened. Angelus and Angel are treated as two separate characters (when Angel loses his soul, Angelus is "set free" until Angel can be restored via getting his soul back) whilst Spike is still treated as Spike regardless of whether he has a soul or not.

 

[Slayerofslayers]

I don't think it's naïve. There's always a line people don't cross, even in the real world. Also I don't think Spike rapes because he'd consider it "cheating" on Dru which is something he wouldn't do (even though rape is about power rather than sex).



Spuffy was completely twisted from the word go and there were no clear boundaries set in their relationship. IMO Spike became OOC as soon as the Spuffy plotline took hold. When you compare how Spike acted with Drusilla to how he acted with Buffy, it's like two different characters



Angelus may have taught Spike the ropes to being a vampire but he would've carved out his own style separate from Angelus. Spike was still very William like in the early days and hopelessly devoted to Dru. Angelus was more of the torture them and kill them slowly type whereas Spike preferred quick kills for the rush. Angelus may have taught torture but I don't think he would've taught Spike rape. He may have tried but I think Spike would've declined and I don't think it is naïve to believe that. In "The Girl in Question", Angelus offered Spike the bride and Spike turned the offer down because he'd rather be hunting with Dru instead.

The only way I can describe it is that if Angelus chose to rape, Spike wouldn't condemn him for it but Spike wouldn't do rape himself because he's not into that type of thing. He'd rather be killing with Dru.



In later seasons the "I'm evil" front was full of bravado but wasn't actually true. Kind of how Spike gave that speech to Buffy that ended something like "I never liked you anyway and you've got stupid hair" (I can't remember the exact quote but it was after the "Out for a walk, bitch" line). Spike was still trying to pretend he was a big bad with the "I'm evil" excuse even though it so obviously wasn't true.



Angelus was always treated by the show as a different entity to Angel, the distinction was always clear. Spike never got that distinction.. You're right that it should be a "together or not at all" situation- they're either the same person regardless of soul status or they're not but one can't be treated one way and the other treated another way. However, that's exactly what happened. Angelus and Angel are treated as two separate characters (when Angel loses his soul, Angelus is "set free" until Angel can be restored via getting his soul back) whilst Spike is still treated as Spike regardless of whether he has a soul or not.

Agreed. Spike even mentions in "What's my line Part two" that he's never been one for the pre-show so he's definitely more into exhilarating fights and chasing down prey to eat rather than torture and rape. And that's an excellent example of Spike turning down the bride. And yeah that's the point is that Spike is different with Buffy then he was with Dru and in flashbacks we see that Spike has an idealized view of romance as he thought that he and Dru would only be with each other but Angelus shattered those notions by sleeping with Dru and he freaked out when the Immortal seduced Drusilla so I think he would expect himself to only be with Dru.