Question Spike/Buffy and Loyalty

[GraceK]

A thought occurred to me recently. At some point, all of the Scoobies have betrayed or turned Buffy in some way.

Xander:: in the comics for Dawns sake, in Revelations by trying to kill Angel, and Of course, Empty Places

Willow:: went evil for a bit, then Empty Places

Giles:: tried to kill Spike, Crucimentum, Empty places

Dawn:: empty places

This is not me bashing the Scoobies, I’m just pointing out that whether it was for the greater good, personal differences or circumstances, there have been moments of betrayal.

Spike on the other hand is utterly devoted to Buffy. He’s her right hand, her loyal friend and I feel he would follow her into hell. So here’s my question::

What would Buffy have to do for Spike to change his allegiance? Is there any scenario where Spike wouldn’t take her side? ( I’m not a comic reader so if it’s alresdy happened excuse me 🙂 ) interested to hear some thoughts .

 

[white avenger]

There is an old C&W song called "He Stopped Loving Her Today," that I think pretty much sums up Spike's feelings for Buffy. In the song, the only thing that could ever stop the man from loving the woman was his death. That's pretty much how I see Spike's love for Buffy. He may, for some reason, someday, leave her, but he will never stop loving her.

(Just in case you might care to hear it...)

 

[GraceK]

@white avenger i have a question for you. Are you by any chance a Game of Thrones fan? Cause in some ways , Spike reminds me of Jaime Lannister. I’ll explain why when I know you know what I’m talking about🙂

 

[Spuffy freak]

If you are asking is there ever going to be a situation where he will not take her side then it might be if she wants to give up her life again but I am not sure there either because he knows better than others about her heaven experience and for saving the world I don’t know. When Dawn went to hell and Buffy agreed to let her go there with Xander and not her or Spike, he was not completely convinced or on her side he was a bit angry but that’s because he cared a lot for Dawn but at the end he realized that it was the only way so I don’t know maybe If Buffy turns evil, that would be a situation where he won’t agree with her and would oppose her but other than that as long as it’s about greater good he let’s Buffy take decisions as his soul is still new and she is the slayer saving the world since he was evil and soulless. If you are asking about betraying her then I will go with @white avenger Spike has always been very loyal to the people he loved even when he was evil like intervention so that is completely against his character and this is not scooby bashing but it’s true at some point every scooby had betrayed Buffy and that’s why Spike is the one for her again cue to the touched speech he does not judge or guide her every action like other scoobies, he is mesmerized by everything she does because he knows her better than others have seen her at her worst and best and still love every part of her so betrayal would go completely against everything that Spike stands for

 

[sosa lola]

Would joining Angel's team in AtS S5 be considered a betrayal? Clearly Buffy and the others didn't trust Angel's decisions anymore, yet Spike joined W&H with Angel instead of going back to Buffy's team. Not to mention, him keeping his return from Buffy.

 

[thetopher]

And what about Buffy betraying the Scoobies? That's happened a couple of times, especially if you factor in the comics.
Loyalty goes both ways.

 

[GraceK]

Look this wasn’t supposed to be a slam against the scoobies. This thread isn’t even about them. I only brought up specific circumstances to attempt to show that as great a friendship they all have, they have ALL had their problems. In comparison to Spike, who worships the ground Buffy walks on so there is never any conflict. That’s my point. What would Buffy have to do for Spike to go against her in any way? That’s all geez

 

[Skanky Vamp]

What would Buffy have to do for Spike to go against her in any way?

I think it would be as simple as dump him for Angel. There's only a few things I think would pit Spike against Buffy.

 

[thetopher]

That’s my point. What would Buffy have to do for Spike to go against her in any way? That’s all geez

Apologies, I think that last post of mine- eh, the tone could've been clearer since it was a random thought that I posted. I swear I wasn't having a go (I have form for that!)
...Anyway, I kinda agree with uh, @Spanky that dumping him for Angel is what it would take to put Spike's nose out of joint. Hell even just bringing up Angel's name in S10 had Spike wanting to walk (but Buffy said no)...

 

[Fool for Buffy]

Spike has learned to value the greater good and not just be loyal to Buffy. If Angel season 5 taught him anything it's that he can be a hero without her. So while I know Spike is completely devoted to Buffy and wants to always be there for her, I trust that if she ever went evil, he would "betray" her and stay good. However I am torn about if she left him for Angel. On the one hand, he wants her to be happy and would try to understand. But losing to Angel would also hurt Spike more than pretty much anything. So I will give him the benefit of the doubt but could be convinced otherwise.

 

[white avenger]

@white avenger i have a question for you. Are you by any chance a Game of Thrones fan? Cause in some ways , Spike reminds me of Jaime Lannister. I’ll explain why when I know you know what I’m talking about🙂

I've never watched the show, but it has been recommended to me by several people, so I may check it out one of these days.

Regarding Spike's loyalty to Buffy, I am reminded of a custom in Edgar Rice Burroughs' Mars series, where a warrior will throw his sword at the feet of someone (usually a beautiful princess) to whom he pledges utter and complete fealty. The pledge goes something like, "My sword, my life, my very soul are yours to do with as you please. Your word is my only law, your wish is my only command, your enemies are my enemies..." and so forth. It's total, all out, no questions asked devotion. That is how I see Spike's loyalty to Buffy.

 

[debbicles]

Tried to rape her.
No greater betrayal.

But after he got his soul? Nope, he excuses everything she does no matter how bad/heartless/out of line and never questions any of her actions/decisions.
Whether you think that's out of loyalty or something else is another matter. Whether you consider that a good thing is entirely debatable.

Last time I looked this was a ship positive sub forum?
Spike and Buffy have both dealt with SR in S10. It will clearly be a hot topic for as long as there is fandom and anyone interested in the show. But they have both moved on from it and I am choosing to do so as well.
If Buffy went bad - and she made a really cute vampire back in S1 - I do believe that Spike would unquestioningly throw in his lot with her, out of love, loyalty and a realisation that she has made many leaps of faith as far as he is concerned. He would be like Jonathan Harker in the original Dracula novel - he would follow his beloved Mina into that long dark night, if she ever rose as a vampire, to save her being alone.

I can't envisage Spike ever abandoning her. And I think that would be wonderful. Of course I don't want the necessity to arise, but if it did... he is loyal to a fault. His heart rules him.
I can't honestly see why unswerving loyalty from Spike to Buffy could possibly be regarded as a dubious trait if you are trying to be happy about the relationship.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

There is an old C&W song called "He Stopped Loving Her Today," that I think pretty much sums up Spike's feelings for Buffy. In the song, the only thing that could ever stop the man from loving the woman was his death. That's pretty much how I see Spike's love for Buffy. He may, for some reason, someday, leave her, but he will never stop loving her.

(Just in case you might care to hear it...)

Thank you for sharing. I love this song so much and I have come to relate to it as well. It's true btw, I lost someone many years ago. I will only stop loving him the day I die. I believe that is Spike's feeling for Buffy. The is no mountain high enough to keep him from her. That is why season 5 of Angel made no sense to me. (one more reason) Even if she wouldn't have him by her side as a partner, he'd have been there as a trusted lieutenant.
 

Spike has learned to value the greater good and not just be loyal to Buffy. If Angel season 5 taught him anything it's that he can be a hero without her. So while I know Spike is completely devoted to Buffy and wants to always be there for her, I trust that if she ever went evil, he would "betray" her and stay good. However I am torn about if she left him for Angel. On the one hand, he wants her to be happy and would try to understand. But losing to Angel would also hurt Spike more than pretty much anything. So I will give him the benefit of the doubt but could be convinced otherwise.

Post soul Spike, I think would try to be good in her honor if she went evil, and definitely try to help her become good again if that were possible... he wouldn't abandon his love for her, though I think the soul would prevent him from doing evil with her like he did with Dru and for Dru before he had any moral compass.

I do think he'd leave her side if she chose Angel, but I don't think he'd stop loving her. If she asked him to stay, I don't know what he'd do. But no, he would not stop loving her.

And to the naysayer about Spike and betrayal. He did see the wrong in what he did. As a direct result he FOUGHT for his SOUL. Because he wanted to be a better person even if she wouldn't have him. Apparently, that isn't enough for some people, but anyway, this is a positive place, so moving on.

 

[Taake]

Yes, lets remember that this is ship positive and keep with the intention of the thread topic.
However, let's not forget to keep it about the post and not the poster, so comments like calling specific posters out or saying that is or isn't enough for "some people", are unnecessary. There is no need to tell other members where they can and can't post, please just report it to the staff and we will take care of it.


Now if you find a different angle or point of view to the thread, and want to take in a non-ship positive direction, feel free to open a different one.

🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Everyone has betrayed everyone on Buffy. And you're right, everyone close to Buffy has betrayed her. One of Buffy's most incredible traits, I think, is her ability and willingness to forgive those who have wronged her. This ability is at the core of who she is.

In response to your question...honestly? No. I can't imagine a scenario where Spike would not take Buffy's side. You're right in that he is completely devoted to her, and completely believes in her. He supports all she does, and I don't see that changing.

Also, a lot of fans would argue that Spike has also betrayed Buffy; the attempted rape, it could be argued, was a betrayed of her trust. But post-soul? Nope. Spike has never betrayed her and I can't imagine him doing so.

 

[nightshade]

@Joan the Vampire Slayer was it a betrayal of omission that Spike didn't tell Buffy himself that he returned after his death in Chosen?

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

@Joan the Vampire Slayer was it a betrayal of omission that Spike didn't tell Buffy himself that he returned after his death in Chosen?

It would probably have been. I think it was terrible writing. I always have to come up with reasons (including stuff like spells) to explain it or subvert canon b/c it makes NO sense to me.

 

[white avenger]

@Joan the Vampire Slayer was it a betrayal of omission that Spike didn't tell Buffy himself that he returned after his death in Chosen?

It would probably have been. I think it was terrible writing. I always have to come up with reasons (including stuff like spells) to explain it or subvert canon b/c it makes NO sense to me.

One of my favorite Buffy conspiracy theories is that a certain unnamed Watcher either recognized the amulet for what it probably was, or learned very quickly after his return, took steps to both inhibit Spike's desire to contact Buffy, both through the use of some sort of a spell and by making himself the only go between agent for any contact with the people on LA and Buffy. He would also be the one to instigate the false Buffy in Rome, and her affair with the Immortal.

Of course, it is nothing but an unproved theory, but I still love it.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

@Joan the Vampire Slayer was it a betrayal of omission that Spike didn't tell Buffy himself that he returned after his death in Chosen?

It might not be a complete answer, but wasn't it impossible for Spike to leave the Wolfram & Hart building until he materialized in corporeal form? During that time, he could not pick up a telephone to call anyone so only the W&H staff knew about him. By the time we get to "Damage", his presence is known but no one from Sunnydale (other than Andrew) makes any kind of effort to meet him. Maybe the writers were just tired of Spuffy.

 

[buffy1990]

I think Spike loves Buffy unconditionally. There may be circumstances where she could do something that would cause him to not be with her (although I honestly can't think of any at the moment...) but I don't think she could do anything that would make his love for her fade.

Spike is definitely devoted to Buffy, but he's not afraid to call her out when she needs to hear it. This is true pre-soul (Referring to Dawn in Blood Ties "maybe if you had been more honest with her in the first place, you wouldn't be making yourself feel better with a round of 'kick the Spike'") and post-soul (From Touched S: "Oh, let's hold on here! I've hummed along to your pity ditty. I think I should have the mic for a bit." B: "Fine, the stage is yours. Cheer me up." S: "You're insufferable." B: "Thank you. That really helped.")

So, I think he will pretty much always take her side, but confront her if he thinks she's in the wrong, because he respects her and the work she does.