The Biting Scene

RomanticSoul

RomanticSoul

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...and it's metaphor. This isn't about hot or not. Or why it happened, or the aftermath or anything that usually gets discussed when it comes to this scene.

In the show biting/sucking blood is a metaphor for sex. This scene was also shot as a sex scene, complete with orgasm. So how am I supposed to interpret the fact that Angel said 'no' several times yet Buffy forced him to do it anyway? Was this non-consentual sex? The whole thing isn't made easier by the fact that he is poisened (similiar to drugged) and at times hallucinating. However for a few minutes he was lucid enough to say 'no'. Buffy punched him right back into his delirium to force him to drink her.

Or is this stretching the metaphor too far and we are supposed to just see it as one person refusing that the other put their life in danger for them. While the other one is just desperately trying to save someone at the possible cost of their own life.

I've always had issues with this scene because IMO Buffy takes choice away from Angel. It's his life at stake here so if he wants to die rather than risk her life then that's his call. It's also against what Angel stands for as a 'person'. Not to mention that it's going to just add to the mountain of guilt he already carries around.
 
I think it's stretching the metaphor too far. His reactions in that scene were akin to the Amends scene in that Angel would rather die than risk hurting another innocent. Yes, the scene was supposed to be sexual but I don't think it was meant to allude to rape.
 
I agree that it wasn't supposed to allude to rape. In fact, Buffy had no idea that she would feel pleasure. I think she looks surprised, probably having expected pain. Whenever you sacrifice yourself for someone you love you are, in a way, taking the choice away from them, because they would most likely rather die than have you take their place. In The Gift Dawn didn't want Buffy to close the portal but she did it anyway. In Amends Angel was suicidal and whether you believe that Angel should have been allowed to kill himself or not, Buffy, like most in her place, chose to help Angel realize his worth.
In the end, Angel would have done the same for Buffy which is why he doesn't really blame her. I think he was a bit mad at her for gambling her life (she didn't know if Angel would stop himself from draining her) but I don't believe he felt violated. They both loved one another very deeply and he respected and understood her decision.
 
I didn't say rape. Why is everyone using that word? 😱

I'm just trying to work out what the show is trying to say with that scene. Since biting is used throughout the show as a metaphor for sex and Angel said no then this becomes a scene about non-consentual sex. I have never thought that however since I'm leaning more towards the other option I've mentioned. It's just that I'm unclear as to how the show wants me to view the scene due to the clash of 'metaphor' and 'what you do for the ones you love'.
 
I know that I'm in the minority here, probably the vast minority, but I never saw anything even vaguely sexual about that particular scene, even though I seem to recall that that's the way that Sarah said she played it. When the camera zoomed in for a closeup of her face, all that I saw was a terrified girl who had died once already under almost identical circumstances. Certainly, I agree that she was doing what she thought was necessary at the time, but I still saw, "Aw, s**t, what have I done now?" in her expression. There was no sexual thrill involved, she thought that she was going to die. Again.

We often hear the metaphor about a vampire's bite being the equivalent to seduction, whereas a werewolf attack is like rape, and I can see that a lot of times, especially in the traditional vampire movies and TV shows, but Angel biting Buffy in that episode, under those circumstances, was, by no means seduction, and the idea that such an attack would result in Buffy having an instantaneous orgasm is like saying that she secretly wanted to be conquered or dominated. It cheapens the character and the story.
 
white avenger said:
I know that I'm in the minority here, probably the vast minority, but I never saw anything even vaguely sexual about that particular scene, even though I seem to recall that that's the way that Sarah said she played it. When the camera zoomed in for a closeup of her face, all that I saw was a terrified girl who had died once already under almost identical circumstances. Certainly, I agree that she was doing what she thought was necessary at the time, but I still saw, "Aw, s**t, what have I done now?" in her expression. There was no sexual thrill involved, she thought that she was going to die. Again.

We often hear the metaphor about a vampire's bite being the equivalent to seduction, whereas a werewolf attack is like rape, and I can see that a lot of times, especially in the traditional vampire movies and TV shows, but Angel biting Buffy in that episode, under those circumstances, was, by no means seduction, and the idea that such an attack would result in Buffy having an instantaneous orgasm is like saying that she secretly wanted to be conquered or dominated. It cheapens the character and the story.
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Honestly, the first time I watched that scene the volume was low and the screen was kinda dark so I didn't know if she was in pain or not. I actually felt uncomfortable, because considering everything I knew about the Buffyverse vampires, I thought she was in pain. Then I saw Joss and Sarah talking about it and watched the scene with my new headphones and I think it's obvious she's having an orgasm.

To me the biting scene is visually interesting and original (which is impressive if you think about the many vampire biting scenes there are) but it goes against what I knew about vampires. Up until that point in the show (season 3) is the vampire bite ever a metaphor for sex? It's always a painful experience for the human whose life is drained and pleasant for the vampire who takes the blood by force. Except in this case, Buffy is feeding Angel willingly and there's some sort of mutual exchange: she gives him blood to save him and so the experience instead of being painful is pleasurable for her. Like Joss explained, since they loved one another it wasn't an exploitative act and I don't think her orgasming cheapens anything. It wasn't about her wanting to be dominated or conquered. It was about the intimacy and the fact that it was essentially their last "sex scene". So while I believe the reason she orgasms instantly is very much up for debate, because she loves him and offers her blood willingly, it doesn't cheapen the character. What happened is very different from Angel biting her against her will and her enjoying it.
That said, SMG's orgasm face makes it seem like she's in pain/scared at times. It isn't just in this particular episode though (also happens in Amends and others).
 
I'll have to watch it again later. I didn't see sex or orgasm in it, but I do tend to overlook such things (though I'm not blind to it, like in the movie Blade, I did see how Blade biting that woman who rescued him and drinking her blood was compared to sex, but I didn't see it in this biting scene between Buffy and Angel).

Though it has interested me in how strong negative emotions--plus lust--can cause a vampire to put his "game face" on (other than feeding time). Not love, jokes, good beer, just things like being punched or kissed passionately. Offhand, the scenes of Angelus with Darla had them in vampire form when in a passionate embrace (similar to Angel and Buffy at times), but where Angel bangs Darla in despair (I'd say as a type of suicide, in trying to become Angelus again so he could stop feeling the pain), I don't recall him vamping out. Kinda unhealthy, now that I think about it. I'm probably going to dwell on this for a bit, as if I didn't have enough to be depressed about. 😛
 
As for using the word "rape," that can be applied to any non consensual sex (which means lack thereof, and "failure to say no" does not count as consent), including where consent was gained by fraud (though it surprises me, this happens when say someone enters a darkened room and a woman assumes its her husband or boyfriend and never figures it out, which makes me wonder if she's truly "present" or retreats within herself for sex), or gained from someone unable to legally give it (like a minor). Violence is not required for it to be called rape, but the exact legal definitions can be murky in addition to varying widely.

That said, Buffy punching Angel (and she is the Slayer and he was sick, so it's not like she's the "weaker" one here) does count as violence, if you want to look at it as a metaphor for sex. Yep, unhealthy. Glad I never saw it that way before.
 
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Carrie Hopewell said:
Up until that point in the show (season 3) is the vampire bite ever a metaphor for sex? It's always a painful experience for the human whose life is drained and pleasant for the vampire who takes the blood by force.
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It has been mentioned by several people connected with the show that almost always, female vampires bite men, and male vampires bite women. There have been some exceptions, but that is the general rule, and that seems to be consistent throughout traditional vampire fiction. Most notably, Dracula seemed to feed exclusively on women, and there was even a movie titled "The Brides Of Dracula."

Both on Whedon's shows and elsewhere, when a victim is bitten by a vampire, there is a moment of initial resistance, followed by surrender. In some cases (not in the Buffyverse) the victim, always a woman being bitten by a man, will actually embrace her attacker after the initial struggle. There are the vampire prostitutes that Riley visits in early Season 5, and Spike's statement in Season 10 that a vampire's bite can produce a euphoric state in the victim. This is all traditional vampire lore, both in the Whedonverse and elsewhere.

I understand the motivation behind Buffy wanting to give Angel some of her blood in this case, the same as I could imagine the same thing happening in Season 7 after she rescued Spike from the First Evil. I just find the idea that she should get a sexual thrill so intense and so immediate from the experience that she would actually have an orgasm, after having been killed in the same manner by the Master less than 2 years prior to be, at best, unrealistic and demeaning to the character. As I said initially, I am obviously in the minority in having that that opinion, but that's it.
 
white avenger said:
It has been mentioned by several people connected with the show that almost always, female vampires bite men, and male vampires bite women. There have been some exceptions, but that is the general rule, and that seems to be consistent throughout traditional vampire fiction. Most notably, Dracula seemed to feed exclusively on women, and there was even a movie titled "The Brides Of Dracula."

Both on Whedon's shows and elsewhere, when a victim is bitten by a vampire, there is a moment of initial resistance, followed by surrender. In some cases (not in the Buffyverse) the victim, always a woman being bitten by a man, will actually embrace her attacker after the initial struggle. There are the vampire prostitutes that Riley visits in early Season 5, and Spike's statement in Season 10 that a vampire's bite can produce a euphoric state in the victim. This is all traditional vampire lore, both in the Whedonverse and elsewhere.
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Yes, I see your point and I agree to an extent, but the examples you're giving me are post season 3. Like I said, up until Graduation Day there's nothing sexual about a vampire feeding from a human. I know what the vampire lore says. However, in the early seasons of Buffy, Joss is very careful about how he portrays vampires. Besides the Dru/Angel/Spike interactions (between vampires), all human - vampires without soul interactions are about demons taking human lives. Even when the vampires are sexualized, vampire-human bite scenes aren't. To Joss it's simple: they're the bad guys. For example, there's something intimate about how Angelus acts around Buffy but she's never turned on by his evilness or his vampire charms and in Lover's Walk there is something sexual about Spike/Willow but only on Spike's side. A human has never given any indication that being drained was actually enjoyable. And I repeat I was only referring to the early seasons. In the later seasons, things do change a bit.
 
I just watched the scene again...I still didn't see it as erotic or Buffy having an orgasm, though I could see how it could be seen so (reminds me once when I heard a Halloween record with shrieks of horror at one point, and we all agreed the shrieking sounded almost pornographic, like she was having an orgasm rather than screaming in terror). But then I watched the Joss interview, and he says he intended it to be erotic. And I must say, I really dislike that scene being such a metaphor.
 
I think a vampire's bite is supposed to be enjoyable/seductive, at least some of the time.
To me, the bite was intense because of that, and because of her fear for Angel and for herself, and because of their love/attraction for each other. But honestly, I never thought that scene was super sexy or anything...I thought it was kind of awkward actually.
 
I did think the scene was sexy and meant to be sexy. But that does not make it sex. As for Buffy taking away choice from Angel, she was saving his life. She loved him and knew him, and knew he didn't want to die, so she saved him. She did something noble, as you would expect from a slayer.
 
Carrie Hopewell said:
Yes, I see your point and I agree to an extent, but the examples you're giving me are post season 3. Like I said, up until Graduation Day there's nothing sexual about a vampire feeding from a human.
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I guess you missed the 'The Wish' earlier in the Season. Vampire Willow and Xander feeding on Cordelia was played in a similiar fashion, especially with Vamp!Xander pushing Willow's head closer as if they are kissing. Except Cordelia's neck was in between their mouths.

Monkey Pants said:
But honestly, I never thought that scene was super sexy or anything...I thought it was kind of awkward actually.
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It's the slurping sounds while he drinks. They are so damn loud that it makes the whole thing just awkward.

Priceless said:
I did think the scene was sexy and meant to be sexy. But that does not make it sex. As for Buffy taking away choice from Angel, she was saving his life. She loved him and knew him, and knew he didn't want to die, so she saved him. She did something noble, as you would expect from a slayer.
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But flip that around. Buffy had an ascension to stop. And Angel knew that. So she wasn't just gambling with hers and Angel's life, but all the residents of Sunnydale and possibly beyond SD as well. It's not just that it's fundamentally against what Angel stands for (and after the Angelus debacle the Season previous he didn't want Buffy in danger because of him again) but she is making a choice that could doom thousands. I understand her choice on a personal level and empathize with it. But ultimately it's Angel's unlife and his choice if he wants to perish. Better him than thousands of people.
 
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RomanticSoul said:
I guess you missed the 'The Wish' earlier in the Season. Vampire Willow and Xander feeding on Cordelia was played in a similiar fashion, especially with Vamp!Xander pushing Willow's head closer as if they are kissing. Except Cordelia's neck was in between their mouths.
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You're missing my point. I also said:

Carrie Hopewell said:
For example, there's something intimate about how Angelus acts around Buffy but she's never turned on by his evilness or his vampire charms and in Lover's Walk there is something sexual about Spike/Willow but only on Spike's side. A human has never given any indication that being drained was actually enjoyable.
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I actually didn't recall that scene in The Wish and it's a good example of a more sexual nature to feeding that I had missed. However, it wasn't sexual from Cordelia's side. Is she enjoying the experience? What I was trying to explain in my first post was that Buffy's orgasm was surprising to me. I maintain my opinion that it was the first time the person being fed from had that kind of reaction to feeding and it's still a bit incomprehensible to me.
 
The fact of the matter is, it would take a lot for someone to NOT save their loved one when they could, no matter the consequences. Likewise most people would not risk a loved one's life to save their own life. It's a not a situation where choice really applies, imo.

🙂
 
RomanticSoul said:
But flip that around. Buffy had an ascension to stop. And Angel knew that. So she wasn't just gambling with hers and Angel's life, but all the residents of Sunnydale and possibly beyond SD as well. It's not just that it's fundamentally against what Angel stands for (and after the Angelus debacle the Season previous he didn't want Buffy in danger because of him again) but she is making a choice that could doom thousands. I understand her choice on a personal level and empathize with it. But ultimately it's Angel's unlife and his choice if he wants to perish. Better him than thousands of people.
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Being the Slayer is a daily gamble. Buffy lives on a knife edge, making life and death decisons every moment of every day, so this is nothing new to her. I agree it was a risk, but Buffy is not stupid, she is a rational person, with super powers and she saw the odds in her favour. She believed in herself and her abilities to withstand being bitten.
 
Priceless said:
Being the Slayer is a daily gamble. Buffy lives on a knife edge, making life and death decisons every moment of every day, so this is nothing new to her. I agree it was a risk, but Buffy is not stupid, she is a rational person, with super powers and she saw the odds in her favour. She believed in herself and her abilities to withstand being bitten.
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Personally, I think she believed in Angel- she believed he would stop because he loved her. In this instance, she really did put her life in his hands. Sure she heals quickly, but if he drained her dry, she would have been dead. So I think she put her trust and belief in him rather than herself in this instance.
 
BuffyBot22 said:
Personally, I think she believed in Angel- she believed he would stop because he loved her. In this instance, she really did put her life in his hands. Sure she heals quickly, but if he drained her dry, she would have been dead. So I think she put her trust and belief in him rather than herself in this instance.
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Guess maybe S7 Buffy isn't as OOC as I thought then. Trusting the monster not to do any damage when it's not even in their right mind is a dangerous gamble. See S7 Spike with a trigger.
 
RomanticSoul said:
Guess maybe S7 Buffy isn't as OOC as I thought then. Trusting the monster not to do any damage when it's not even in their right mind is a dangerous gamble. See S7 Spike with a trigger.
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It's not really about trusting the monster, when it comes to Angel or Spike, it's always about Buffy and the trust she has in herself. The vampires are always simply a part of Buffy's narrative. Buffy believed she had enough power over Angel, and Spike S7, to be able to control them or force them to control themselves. The bite wasn't about Angel, it's always about Buffy and her decisions regarding him. S7 was about Power and Buffy's belief in Spike is an example of the power she believes she holds over him.
 
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