I think Spike was way too in love with Dru in season 2 to bother with Buffy. Even when he formed a temporary alliance with Buffy he thought Angelus was going to kill her and he shrugged it off while carrying Dru away for himself.
We know Spike judges Slayers on their appearances, seems to have a bit of a mad-on for them and whether he'd want to "dance" with them. James also played it in that manner. So for some fans to say he was in love with Buffy when he first saw her is laughable.
Pairing up with Buffy was about saving Dru and himself (plus destroying Angelus because Spike hates him), not for any other reason.
So I agree, Spike was devoted to Dru and didn't have eyes for anyone else.
Oh here we go. I am all for analyzing and looking deeply into things (especially BtVS) but it was in no way a rape scene! Buffy could’ve thrown him off the balcony at any moment. And we already have a rape scene in seeing red soo let’s not.
When Buffy tells him to stop and he says make me- again she could stop him 100% if she wanted but he knows she wants it too. And his line “tell me you don’t love getting away with this under their noses” only relates to how ashamed Buffy was not that she was being taken advantage of necessarily; remember she was taking advantage of him just as much if not more- she said it- im using you.
Are you really saying the because Buffy can fight off Spike she must fight off Spike or she wants it? If you are that is a truly disguting thought proces.
It was a rape scene. Spike started sex "foreplay"(?). Buffy said "stop" and Spike refused. That is actual rape.
Spike doesn't get a pass because of their past sex acts or Buffy's silence. She is under no obligation to fight Spike off.
Also, there are no indictors that this is a dream sequence.
This scene is the clearest example of actual rape in BTVS.
You're absolutely right - in real life. But in the context of this series, Buffy is a Slayer, and is stronger, or at the least, equally matched with Spike in strength, so it's implied and expected that if she wanted to, she would have stopped it.
One of the true strengths of S1-S5 is how realistic the non-fantasy parts of the show (friendships, school issues, life issues & pressures & events, interpersonal relations, etc.) are presented. Even the many intersections between the real life & fantasy elements show a bias to realism so we can easily place ourselves in the situations that come up without having to suspend much disbelief.
S6 - New Season with a New Showrunner abandons all that and becomes a much worse show. Never mind the bad storylines, the relationships go from mostly believable to pretty much fantasy soap opera melodramas. And in fantasy soap opera melodrama there is room for whatever kind of "relationship" the New Showrunner wants to present however she wants to present it.
Is it?
I would say Faith in Buffy’s body having sex with Riley is that. That was consent perverted!
This, feels yeah dark romance to me, which I don’t like. But her “don’t” is not a “stop!” for me to be honest.
It is “don’t/not here/not now” which is a no in a sense, but I’ll agree that it is a “no, I shouldn’t have this chocolate… but I will” as mentioned earlier in the thread
Like, say what you will, but I read Buffy as into it. I am disturbed by what Spike says, and I don’t like it. But I do read consent in her to the actual actions
Then we can discuss things you do when you are down, and Spike using that, but I still cannot read this as rape
Partly because women are allowed to have dark fantasies and to act them out
Sure, people who are sexually inexperienced or young adults, consent all the way, enthusiastic engaged constant consent.
Being 20+ and sex is as natural as any other physical contact between a pair, its a different story. Its not the same, like schooling vs real life, it plays out differently.
Thats could form part of the conflict in this scene for Buffy - that she wants it, but knows she shouldn't. She doesn't keep a tight rein on herself this season, and enjoys losing a bit of control, stepping into the forbidden. Its all part of the theme of the season. Its not the same as rape.
Wrong. She said "don't" and Spike said "Make Me" and then makes her have anal sex while Buffy looks like she wants to cry. That isn't schooling v real life. In spite of the theme of the season and Buffy not keeping a tight rein on herself and being 20+ with sex as natural as any other physical contact.....
If the parameters are the exact same (Buffy is actively and willingly participating in a on/off sexual relationship with the Master) then for me it would be 100% not rape. It would be the same as this scene for me. To me her "don't" in this scene is not a firm no, as evidenced by her letting Spike continue.
Why does the "no" have to be firm? I thought no meant no? Again, why does Buffy have to do anything to stop Spike? If he actually loves her shouldn't he stop himself? How is this any different from: She didn't fight so She wasn't raped? Or my favorite: She wasn't raped because She wanted it?
I picked up on a couple of things that I'd forgotten about.
Spike enforced Buffy's compliance by threatening to tell her friends about all the things she did with him. Buffy's terror at her friends finding out would have a similar effect to Spike using handcuffs or roofies on Buffy. Again, Buffy looked like she was going to cry. Not like she was giving nonverbal consent to anal sex. Also, Buffy couldn't fight Spike without creating a huge scene and letting her friends and everyone else in Sunnydale know about her "relationship".
What? If a no isn't firm then its ambiguous. How can a partner be expected to know your boundaries, and be expected to respect them when you give them mixed messages?
Also, she doesn't say no, she says "don't" and doesn't try to stop him. To me, she is consenting in this scene.
I don't now, nor have I ever, held to the view that Spike genuinely loves Buffy without a soul. Nothing on screen shows me that he genuinely loves her. He is in love with the concept of love and thinks that what he feels for Buffy is genuine love, but as a soulless demon, he lacks the moral compass and insight needed to feel genuine pure love. Isn't that what Spike comes to realize after his actions in Seeing Red?
I see Buffy sleeping with Spike as a form of self-medicating, which is a form of self abuse.
She hates herself for doing it because without a soul Spike is a "dead thing" and she should be (and in a healthy mental state she would be) vehemently opposed to it, but she gets enjoyment from it, and it helps her feel again. Not a whole lot different than turning to drugs or alcohol to numb your pain.
Isn't that the whole point of Buffy's arc this season? Buffy has to hit rock bottom to find herself again. Spike is her rock bottom. The very catalyst needed for her to heal. Once she gets away from Spike she sees things from a different perspective.
What? If a no isn't firm then its ambiguous. How can a partner be expected to know your boundaries, and be expected to respect them when you give them mixed messages?
Also, she doesn't say no, she says "don't" and doesn't try to stop him. To me, she is consenting in this scene.
I don't see how much firmer Buffy could be than saying "don't" as Spike pulls her dress up.
Also, Spike just dropped a huge threat: to tell Buffy's friends about what she lets him do to her. Threat comes just before "don't". That would give Buffy pause about resisting.
And, if Buffy got more physical about "don't" her worst nightmare would come true when her friends would see her entwined with Spike on the balcony of the Bronze.
Finally, many women freeze when sexually assaulted, especially when sexually assaulted by someone they know.
Wrong. She said "don't" and Spike said "Make Me" and then makes her have anal sex while Buffy looks like she wants to cry. That isn't schooling v real life. In spite of the theme of the season and Buffy not keeping a tight rein on herself and being 20+ with sex as natural as any other physical contact.....
Whilst I agree with you, I will correct you on two things: Spike actually said, "Stop me" after Buffy said, "Don't".
And I don't think it was anal sex, I think it was 'regular' sex but he's just penetrating her from behind.
Why does the "no" have to be firm? I thought no meant no? Again, why does Buffy have to do anything to stop Spike? If he actually loves her shouldn't he stop himself? How is this any different from: She didn't fight so She wasn't raped? Or my favorite: She wasn't raped because She wanted it?
Are you really saying the because Buffy can fight off Spike she must fight off Spike or she wants it? If you are that is a truly disguting thought proces.
It was a rape scene. Spike started sex "foreplay"(?). Buffy said "stop" and Spike refused. That is actual rape.
Spike doesn't get a pass because of their past sex acts or Buffy's silence. She is under no obligation to fight Spike off.
Also, there are no indictors that this is a dream sequence.
This scene is the clearest example of actual rape in BTVS.
The clearest example ?! Have you seen Seeing Red??
I can’t believe how many seem to act like Buffy wasn’t a consenting participant in their sexual relationship… and acting like I’m defending Spikes actions in Seeing Red. All I was saying was that if Buffy really wanted him to stop in Dead Things she of all people could’ve made him. Remember Go Fish when Cameron got his face smashed into the steering wheel because Buffy didn’t approve of his advances? I’m not saying it’s right for Spike to proceed with sex even when Buffy said no, but I’m just opining on the topic. And this is what makes for interesting conversation; I love debating.
I’m not saying because Buff can fight him off she should or else she wants it but clearly she didn’t put up too big of a fight- I don’t know how you can deny that; and it sounds gross of me to say it but think about it- she was using him for sex and escape from her depression too. By the point of the balcony scene in Dead Things they were deep in their “relationship” and just because it was taboo /in the dark doesn’t mean it wasn’t a real connection if not real relationship. Also remember Spike still didn’t even have a soul at this point. And his actual attempted rape in Seeing Red was the catalyst for him eventually getting a soul so it really is a positive statement on the issue of sexual assault in the end because spike realized how wrong he was for what he did to Buffy he left and got his soul.
And his actual attempted rape in Seeing Red was the catalyst for him eventually getting a soul so it really is a positive statement on the issue of sexual assault in the end because spike realized how wrong he was for what he did to Buffy he left and got his soul.
Buffy threw him off - he didn't come to this realisation that what he was doing was 'wrong' whilst he was in the middle of trying to rape her (again!). "Because I stopped you - something I should've done a long time ago"
The clearest example ?! Have you seen Seeing Red??
I can’t believe how many seem to act like Buffy wasn’t a consenting participant in their sexual relationship… and acting like I’m defending Spikes actions in Seeing Red. All I was saying was that if Buffy really wanted him to stop in Dead Things she of all people could’ve made him. Remember Go Fish when Cameron got his face smashed into the steering wheel because Buffy didn’t approve of his advances? I’m not saying it’s right for Spike to proceed with sex even when Buffy said no, but I’m just opining on the topic. And this is what makes for interesting conversation; I love debating.
I’m not saying because Buff can fight him off she should or else she wants it but clearly she didn’t put up too big of a fight- I don’t know how you can deny that; and it sounds gross of me to say it but think about it- she was using him for sex and escape from her depression too. By the point of the balcony scene in Dead Things they were deep in their “relationship” and just because it was taboo /in the dark doesn’t mean it wasn’t a real connection if not real relationship. Also remember Spike still didn’t even have a soul at this point. And his actual attempted rape in Seeing Red was the catalyst for him eventually getting a soul so it really is a positive statement on the issue of sexual assault in the end because spike realized how wrong he was for what he did to Buffy he left and got his soul.
I get nonverbal consent. The issue here is Buffy's direct withdrawal of consent by saying "don't" and Spike saying "make me" or "stop me" instead of stopping and asking why.
Why do you think Buffy has to put up any fight at all to avoid having sex when she doesn't want it? She just said "don't".
Across their entire fxckfest, Buffy says don't or no twice. BOTH times Spike blows through her withdrawal of consent and rapes her.
Spike not having a soul is a great reason to stake him not an excuse for his behavior.
The catalyst is arguable at best and based on whedon-noxon-espenson-fury-the new guy being the worst writers possible for not laying any foundation for Spike "getting his soul for Buffy" and then basing the entire S7 Spuffiness on "I got my soul for you!!!!!" It would have helped if the Seeing Red-Villians-Two To Go-Grave run had any indicators that Spike was doing something for Buffy as opposed to preparing to do something to Buffy. Spending 4 episodes refering to Buffy as "Bitch" doesn't help the "Spike got his soul for Buffy" argument either.
TLDR: You and I are not going to agree about this. Given the intensity of the debate, I doubt we would ever agree.
What? If a no isn't firm then its ambiguous. How can a partner be expected to know your boundaries, and be expected to respect them when you give them mixed messages?
What exactly is this supposed difference between "no" and "don't" and "stop"? They all directly withdraw consent.
Again WHY does Buffy have to try to STOP Spike? There is no "nonverbal consent based on their ongoing sexual relationship" shown between "dont" and the rape.
That is not what is shown in Seeing Red or Villians or Two To Go or Grave. No indicators or "bread crumbs" are shown that Spike wants anything beyond what Adam told him 2 years ago: Spike wants to be whole so he can savage the land again.
Now, we do hear that throughout S7. Starting with Spike. On screen, nothing but Spike's words back up the claim to getting his soul for Buffy.
From 1:01 to 1:07 - that is anguish on her face. She then shudders briefly and her eyes are shiny, as she's holding back from crying.
I've never read it as lust or desire. That is a girl at rock bottom with her abuser taking advantage of her. It's so saddening to watch.
People will interpret differently of course, as everyone is free to do so.
NotASlayerIt should always be remembered that Spike's "relationship" with Buffy in S6 was deliberately, and accurately, written as misogynistic abuse. Not as a dark "romance" which is bad enough, but misogyny and abuse.
NoShipWell..... S6 Spike treats Buffy in the prototypical way an abuser would break down a victim. Whoever the writer was (Espenson ... cough ... cough) didn't to a very good job of protecting Spike's character.
Buffy threw him off - he didn't come to this realisation that what he was doing was 'wrong' whilst he was in the middle of trying to rape her (again!). "Because I stopped you - something I should've done a long time ago"
Did I say he came to the realization while he was doing it? No. Right after she threw him off and he saw her face and heard what she said he realized. Why can’t we give him any grace in understanding this was a necessary evil in the progression of his character kind of like how Tara had to die to give rise to Dark Willow
I get nonverbal consent. The issue here is Buffy's direct withdrawal of consent by saying "don't" and Spike saying "make me" or "stop me" instead of stopping and asking why.
Why do you think Buffy has to put up any fight at all to avoid having sex when she doesn't want it? She just said "don't".
Across their entire fxckfest, Buffy says don't or no twice. BOTH times Spike blows through her withdrawal of consent and rapes her.
Spike not having a soul is a great reason to stake him not an excuse for his behavior.
The catalyst is arguable at best and based on whedon-noxon-espenson-fury-the new guy being the worst writers possible for not laying any foundation for Spike "getting his soul for Buffy" and then basing the entire S7 Spuffiness on "I got my soul for you!!!!!" It would have helped if the Seeing Red-Villians-Two To Go-Grave run had any indicators that Spike was doing something for Buffy as opposed to preparing to do something to Buffy. Spending 4 episodes refering to Buffy as "Bitch" doesn't help the "Spike got his soul for Buffy" argument either.
TLDR: You and I are not going to agree about this. Given the intensity of the debate, I doubt we would ever agree.
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If your lover is sending mixed messages about having sex you have a huge problem.
The way to address that problem is to have a long talk about boundaries and mixed messages.
Spile never cared about Buffy's boundaries. He blew through them from School Hard to Chosen.
What exactly is this supposed difference between "no" and "don't" and "stop"? They all directly withdraw consent.
Again WHY does Buffy have to try to STOP Spike? There is no "nonverbal consent based on their ongoing sexual relationship" shown between "dont" and the rape.
That is not what is shown in Seeing Red or Villians or Two To Go or Grave. No indicators or "bread crumbs" are shown that Spike wants anything beyond what Adam told him 2 years ago: Spike wants to be whole so he can savage the land again.
Now, we do hear that throughout S7. Starting with Spike. On screen, nothing but Spike's words back up the claim to getting his soul for Buffy.
I understand you didn’t bring up seeing red- I brought it up. If we compare dead things to seeing red there is a clear distinction. Buffy clearly did not want any of it in Seeing Red- in Dead Things, it’s not so clear.& I never said Buffy HAD to fight him off I said she COULD. And as I stated earlier she explicitly told him she was using him for sex so lets stop acting like spike was just raping Buffy throughout season 6
Did I say he came to the realization while he was doing it? No. Right after she threw him off and he saw her face and heard what she said he realized. Why can’t we give him any grace in understanding this was a necessary evil in the progression of his character kind of like how Tara had to die to give rise to Dark Willow
I understand you didn’t bring up seeing red- I brought it up. If we compare dead things to seeing red there is a clear distinction. Buffy clearly did not want any of it in Seeing Red- in Dead Things, it’s not so clear.& I never said Buffy HAD to fight him off I said she COULD. And as I stated earlier she explicitly told him she was using him for sex so lets stop acting like spike was just raping Buffy throughout season 6
Please don't put words in my mouth. I said Spike raped Buffy twice.
I don't give Spike any grace because he doesn't deserve any. He has spent the season from Flooded to Dead things abusing Buffy and he will continue to Seeing Red except when Buffy is mentally and emotionally strong enough to tell him off.
Rape is never a necessary evil. The fact that Whedon and Noxon thought it was, just shows that they are scum.
I don't think Dark Willow is worth the death of Tara. Again, bad story ideas.
The distinction between DT and SR is that Buffy was recovering from Spike's abuse in SR and had the mental and emotional fortitude to run him off. In both, she clearly let Spike know that she did not want sex. In both Spike responded by sexually assaulting her.
Buffy told Spike that he was "convienient" all the way back in Afterlife. She never changed. Spike's option was to dump Buffy and move on with someone (something) else. It wasn't to commit rape twice.
hoponlilmamaAnd his emotional abuse of her continues in s7!
The distinction between DT and SR is that Buffy was recovering from Spike's abuse in SR and had the mental and emotional fortitude to run him off. In both, she clearly let Spike know that she did not want sex. In both Spike responded by sexually assaulting her.
Buffy told Spike that he was "convienient" all the way back in Afterlife. She never changed. Spike's option was to dump Buffy and move on with someone (something) else. It wasn't to commit rape twice.
I don't believe Buffy actually does "convienient." Like if she did that, then she should have had an easier time shaking off Parker.
The whole season is Buffy depressed and convinced there was something wrong with her and we know she's wrong about that, so why should we be taking her word for things
That is not what is shown in Seeing Red or Villians or Two To Go or Grave. No indicators or "bread crumbs" are shown that Spike wants anything beyond what Adam told him 2 years ago: Spike wants to be whole so he can savage the land again.
the problem with that is Spike is seen as a guy who doesn't want to "savage the land." That's part of the problem when you have villains who kill people and villains who want to end existence as we know it, I suppose. "Savage the land" means different things to different people and there's justification for seeing certain villains certain ways
But..... in Dead Things, Spike starts the sexual foreplay in public, not in the crypt, he threatens Buffy with exposure of all the kinky things she has done with him, and, when she tells him to stop, refuses.
So, not the same situation. In S7 Anya highlights Spike's "get out of jail free card" from Buffy which applies to Spike's worshipers as well.
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Buffy actually valued Parker. I don't know. Whedon & Co didn't care to explore the why of Buffy's attachment. Which really stinks.
I do know that "convenient" means lacking value. As in "I can be alone with you here". Which has to be the coldest coment in S6.
So, Spike lacks any value to Buffy which is why she can scrump him and beat him at will without consequence and why exposure to the people she does care about is her greatest nightmare this season. I don't think Buffy would treat any being as she treated Spike if she wasn't clinically depressed.
The whole season is Buffy depressed and convinced there was something wrong with her and we know she's wrong about that, so why should we be taking her word for things
The short answer is that, unlike Spike, Buffy doesn't generally lie. Except in S6 where she feels she can't tell her friends the truth of her afterlife which, inevitably, leads to a lot more lies.
Interestingly enough, Buffy does not lie to Spike. She tells him what she really thinks, no matter what. Also, Buffy only directly refused Spike sex twice: the Bronze and the bathroom. So I tend to believe her here.
the problem with that is Spike is seen as a guy who doesn't want to "savage the land." That's part of the problem when you have villains who kill people and villains who want to end existence as we know it, I suppose. "Savage the land" means different things to different people and there's justification for seeing certain villains certain ways
What the Spike worshipers conveniently forget is that Spike is leashed, not, reformed. The very first thing Spike does when he thinks the chip failed is attack the woman in the alley. And it takes only eight seconds to overcome two years of operant conditioning. That is a super powerful killer instinct.
I am not sure how one would interpret "savage the land" as not including lots and lots of pillaging and plundering and raping and killing.
Whedon & Co wrote the Buffy characters to "be debated and argued about forever". To accomplish that, characters must be written as part good and part bad and part loveable and part hateable all at the same time. In the same moment. I think that, with Spike, they succeeded.
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hoponlilmamaThank you! He didn't suddenly turn 'good'. He's chipped, and that's a big difference!
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Buffy actually valued Parker. I don't know. Whedon & Co didn't care to explore the why of Buffy's attachment. Which really stinks.
The short answer is that, unlike Spike, Buffy doesn't generally lie. Except in S6 where she feels she can't tell her friends the truth of her afterlife which, inevitably, leads to a lot more lies.
Not to tear her down, but Buffy has had some pretty major lies. Such as Angel coming back. I also feel like she is frequently dishonest with her feelings. Buffy's messed up relationship with her own feelings is one of her biggest flaws. To me, if Buffy had a honest grasp on her own feelings, she doesn't need that meeting with the First Slayer in season 5
What the Spike worshipers conveniently forget is that Spike is leashed, not, reformed. The very first thing Spike does when he thinks the chip failed is attack the woman in the alley. And it takes only eight seconds to overcome two years of operant conditioning. That is a super powerful killer instinct.
Here's something to know about me. I didn't get to watch Buffy as it aired till season 6. As season 6 was airing I was watching the first 5 seasons in syndication. So I'm not even sure I'd gotten all the way through them by the time we got to that ep in season 6. So I was watching it without having seen his entire character journey. And that speech he gave before that attack felt like someone psyching himself up for something you think you should ddo, not that you want to do
Whedon & Co wrote the Buffy characters to "be debated and argued about forever". To accomplish that, characters must be written as part good and part bad and part loveable and part hateable all at the same time. In the same moment. I think that, with Spike, they succeeded.
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