If Angel was so good for her, why did he leave town? He abused the snot out of her on a regular basis as Angelus. It's not to say she and Spike were super healthy, but Spike sacrificed a lot for Buffy. What did Angel sacrifice?
Just because he left, it didn't mean he loved her any less. You think you're making a point and getting a one-up that somehow Angel is the loser or somehow loved Buffy less. It's not the gotcha point you think it is.
He recognised the hurt and that he couldn't give her the life she deserved. Walking away to give someone wings is tough. Spike didn't do that.
Also, he walked away because he got his own show - a point we can't avoid really!
😉😂
What did Spike sacrifice? He got a soul after trying to violently rape Buffy and hung it over her head.
Right, you don't ship them, I do.
I know this.
I do. Just because I'm not a Spuffy and I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm automatically wrong.
I think people are making too much of the fact that it is the last word. Buffy was asked what caused the sinkhole to devour Sunnydale and she answered, "Spike." This was factually true - the pendant he wore did it and he stayed until the Turok Han genocide was complete. I don't see any shipping significance to it.
Exactly. If it had been Willow, Faith or Angel who had been in place instead, would we be talking about it being some deep and meaningful reference? No.
As you stated, Buffy was answering Giles.
You gave the accurate answer. You ship Spuffy.
@hoponlilmama doesn't. Spuffies and non-Spuffies (like me) just aren't going to agree.
Indeed. This is not a Spuffy forum. People have every right to either hate Spike as a character, dislike Spuffy as a ship etc. And everyone has the right to refute points of debate.
And yet he still taunted Buffy about the attempted rape "Guess this would be first touch since you-know-when", made it all about himself "I've changed", never acknowledged any of the trauma he put her through, literally said he couldn't apologise for sexually assaulting her, showed zero remorse when confronted with the son of the Slayer he murdered, still wore said murdered Slayer's coat as trophy and victim-blamed Buffy while playing the victim. I don't see any "tremendous suffering" there.
Not only that, he taunted her about, "another round on the balcony" where he raped her in Dead Things. In front of the others, which would only serve to humiliate Buffy.
Further in the season when he and Faith are talking in the basement, this exchange was gross:
Faith: Don't tell me little Miss-Tightly-Wound's been getting her naughty on?
Spike: Not of late
Listen to the disappointment in his voice. As if he expected to once again be having sex with Buffy after he'd gotten his soul. Also serving to cut her down by telling Faith about the fact Buffy had sex with Spike. And good ol' William, not telling her how things ended with Spike trying to rape her. What a guy!
He went crazy in a basement for two weeks and then was back to acting like pre-souled Spike. The soul
should be a burden, he
should be feeling all the guilt after 100+ years of murder and mayhem. But I guess they couldn't have another brooding vampire - audiences didn't like it.
Just my two cents, I think there's a lot of difference shown between Angel/Angelus than from Spike/Spike. Season 7 Spike was too much like season 5 Spike to me rather than a different being. Had they SHOWN the change more then I'd buy it more. For example, if Spike gave his coat to Robin and showed remorse, saying it was no longer him, then I'd have seen him different (he could even still threaten Robin if he tried to kill him again, once he gave up the jacket).
As it is, Spike didn't feel truly different to me until he was on Angel. And that strongly impacts how I view Spuffy, even in season 7.
If the writers really wanted to rehab Spike's image, they failed miserably. Even I can say if Spike had acted differently, I could warm to his situation more.
The main example is the one you mentioned, thrasherpix; giving the coat back to Robin would've gone far in the eyes of the audience. Spike apologising to Buffy (and for the record, Faith should also have apologised!). He doesn't bother to try and interact with anyone except for Buffy and treats them with contempt.
And you are right, we really don't see Spike changing until he's over on AtS. Even then he's still acting like a jerk in the beginning, but he starts to come around.
I'd say yes on account of a lot of The First's efforts being on him. He was either gonna be essential to losing or to winning and him overcoming the trigger without lasting damage it's what you might find underwhelming but it was a resolution. He saved the world and gave Buffy strength to get the scythe and turn the potentials into slayers which is the final aim of the season. Now we could discuss to no end if he was really necessary or if they did it satisfyingly but that's what the show told us.
I don't think Spike was
that central to the First's plans. Otherwise it would've triggered Spike and have him slaughter the potentials in the house. The First was trying to destroy the Slayer line. So why twiddle your thumbs? Or Spike could've killed the most powerful person - Willow. That storyline just petered out into nothing.
S7 unfortunately became the Spike and Buffy show: Spike comes back and crazy in the basement, Buffy takes care of him. Spike is triggered, Buffy takes care of him. Spike's chip starts malfunctioning Buffy takes care of him. It's all an obvious ploy to push their 'relationship' whilst turning the rest of the central cast into background figures.
I definitely feel Buffy is pressured to take responsibility where she isn't responsible. At the same time, it is not dissimilar to her and Angel after he comes back from Hell. She feels guilt for both triggering Angelus and for sending Angel to Hell, and she takes care of him. Angel never apologized for what he did as Angelus.
For the record, Angel should've apologised. To Buffy
and to the Scoobies.
The difference here though is she loves Angel and that's why she takes care of him when he returns.
With Spike, she was completely guilted into it. The optics are terrible. He tries to rape her, leaves and then comes back into her life. Spike is not Buffy's responsibility, yet somehow that's how it ends up and she's there to coddle her abuser and rapist.
I find S7 a great deal more upsetting because it is, like you described, the show is making her up to be the bad guy, while extending a lot of generosity to Spike, but I don't know that I could describe either guy as forcing Buffy to coddle her abuser. Spike was crazy in the beginning, ashamed of her help and did offer to leave. Again, I do think she feels guilty and pressure because of the soul but I can't discount her personal feelings being a big part of the equation as it was with Angel. I dislike the season more for putting Buffy in that position than me thinking Spike is manipulative and obsessed (although sometimes he WAS manipulative).
Giles even points out the fact that she and Spike had had a sexual relationship means her judgement is clouded. Buffy hasn't had time to process and recover from all of her trauma from s6.
It's sad that Buffy refers to herself as a monster, when she was merely dealing with PTSD and depression. She used Spike to feel - considering her circumstances and state of mind, I don't think she behaved like a
monster. The poor girl was drowning, I give her some grace.
Making her out to be the villain of the piece with her s6 'relationship' with Spike - why is the blame on her?
