Your opinion on Liam?

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
Hi all,

I was wondering what you guys though of Liam before he became Angel?

I'm not a big fan of him but maybe you guys can change my mind!

Please do tell 🙂

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Yeah that was funny, even if it didn't make any sense.
There is a lot about Angel's story that is hard to wrap one's head around. Why did he move to America? What happened between hanging out with Frank Sinatra and the Rat Gang and getting a James Dean jacket and moving into the Hyperion? When did he start living in dumpsters? How did he lose his accent if he hardly ever spoke to anyone, except all those celebrities he namechecks? How come he has such a modern and American idea of what raising a son entails? He talks about playing baseball with Connor. When did Angel play baseball?
 
Either "not impressed" to "holding him in contempt" depending on how aggressive his womanizing was (was he a drunken Parker-like womanizer, or was he honest about it without pressure on others to serve his needs?) or how easily he made and broke promises, etc. I've got nothing against debauchery as long as it's benign enough, but the details on how he practiced it aren't really shown.

One good thing about him is that he likes strong women. At least that's what he tells Buffy after the Halloween incident of Buffy dressing the role of princess for him. Ah yes, "They were just incredibly dull. Simpering morons, the lot of them. I always wished I could meet someone... exciting." 'Course he'd get that wish in Darla...

Though to be fair to the "women back then" in his society, they had a role to play as well, and it would generally serve them well to pretend to be dull and simpering morons even when they were not.
 
There is a lot about Angel's story that is hard to wrap one's head around. Why did he move to America? What happened between hanging out with Frank Sinatra and the Rat Gang and getting a James Dean jacket and moving into the Hyperion? When did he start living in dumpsters? How did he lose his accent if he hardly ever spoke to anyone, except all those celebrities he namechecks? How come he has such a modern and American idea of what raising a son entails? He talks about playing baseball with Connor. When did Angel play baseball?

I meant that the loss of his accent in 'Spin the Bottle' didn't makes sense since reverting to his 17-yr-old self should naturally cause him to speak with his original accent. But I liked the joke all the same - anything to spare us the 'Oirish'!🙄

I'd love more Angel backstory! After all, he wasn't always eating rats and living in sewers.

I can take a stab at why he moves to America: in 'Orpheus' he's shown arriving on Ellis Island, New York, in 1902, off a boatload of immigrants, so I reckon Angel had previously left China and returned to Europe. Pretty soon he realises that Europe hold too many memories of his atrocities there; he probably doesn't even feel like he deserves to set foot there. For many immigrants America meant a fresh start, economic opportunity and freedom from oppression; for Angel, who at that point isn't looking for redemption, it was probably an escape as America was a country he hadn't tainted as Angelus. There were massive waves of Irish immigration to America from colonial times to the early 1900s, especially of Irish Catholics who faced religious discrimination due to British Protestant rule. We know Angel has always felt a deep connection to his Irishness despite the damage he did to his hometown so it's not too hard to imagine him identifying with his people and choosing to follow them, even if he did avoid human contact.

That said, the writers could have had him come over in another way: with the Chinese immigrants after leaving Darla in China 1900. Then he would have landed in San Francisco at the Angel Island immigration centre. 😀

I can believe he lost his accent quite easily. For one thing he is a good actor and has no problem imitating different personalities and mannerisms when he needs to, so changing his accent doesn't seem like that hard a feat for him. He doesn't need to speak to people to do it, he just has to listen, observe and imitate. He spent 90 years in the US and would have heard the regional accents change and develop. As for his American idea of raising a child, again I expect it's just from wanting to fit in the with world and society around him; it's certainly a better parenting model than that of his own childhood! I don't remember Angel mentioning baseball, but they did bring in DB's hockey obsession with Angel buying Connor a little hockey kit, saying he likes it because the games are indoors and at night.
 
To answer the original question, I don't like Liam but I do pity him. He may have been a drunken whoring layabout but he wasn't evil and it's clear that his relationship with his father was hugely dysfunctional. Because we're only shown the state of their relationship near the end of Liam's life, much of its development is a blank. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario in taht we can't be sure what came first: the son's rebellion or the father's disappointment.

It most likely was a bit of both: a young teenage Liam makes a relatively minor misdemeanor or shows interest in something unsuitable and his father reacts with strict reproach. Rinse and repeat a few more times until Dad starts to despair of what will become of his son believing he's destined for no good, and in turn Liam begins to deliberately live down to his expectations. Throw in your natural teenage angst and rebellion and it only gets worse, until it's a vicious cycle. Tim Minear's comments on Prodigal seem to support this : 'Angel saw his father as a prick, but he really wasn’t. His father saw Angel as a loser, which he didn’t need to be'. They both saw what they wanted to see, which in turn led to them becoming exactly who the other thought they were.

Liam seems to resent what he sees as his father's hypocrisy; his ambitions to higher social status but lacking the behaviour of one: 'eats with his hands, the pig'; 'we have one servant' (Minear's script describes hims as 'a rough man out dressed to look the part of the lauded gentry') and his insistence on piety when he'd supposedly done his 'fair share of sinning'. The emphasis on his father's religiosity and his lack of hesitation in beating Liam suggests he was also something of a disciplinarian in the physical sense - corporal punishment may have been something Liam had grown up with. But the line from 'The Prodigal: 'It was a son I wanted - a man.' does make me wonder if Liam somehow failed to live up to his father's ideals of masculinity, as well as his expectations of a good son? We know Angel is a good artist; as Angelus his evil is meticulously planned and aestheticised. Perhaps the talents or interests a young Liam displayed were deemed by his father as frivolous of effeminate? I feel like it's sort of hinted at again in 'Spin the Bottle' when he apologises to Cordelia for 'acting womanish'.
 
To answer the original question, I don't like Liam but I do pity him. He may have been a drunken whoring layabout but he wasn't evil and it's clear that his relationship with his father was hugely dysfunctional. Because we're only shown the state of their relationship near the end of Liam's life, much of its development is a blank. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario in taht we can't be sure what came first: the son's rebellion or the father's disappointment.

It most likely was a bit of both: a young teenage Liam makes a relatively minor misdemeanor or shows interest in something unsuitable and his father reacts with strict reproach. Rinse and repeat a few more times until Dad starts to despair of what will become of his son believing he's destined for no good, and in turn Liam begins to deliberately live down to his expectations. Throw in your natural teenage angst and rebellion and it only gets worse, until it's a vicious cycle. Tim Minear's comments on Prodigal seem to support this : 'Angel saw his father as a prick, but he really wasn’t. His father saw Angel as a loser, which he didn’t need to be'. They both saw what they wanted to see, which in turn led to them becoming exactly who the other thought they were.

Liam seems to resent what he sees as his father's hypocrisy; his ambitions to higher social status but lacking the behaviour of one: 'eats with his hands, the pig'; 'we have one servant' (Minear's script describes hims as 'a rough man out dressed to look the part of the lauded gentry') and his insistence on piety when he'd supposedly done his 'fair share of sinning'. The emphasis on his father's religiosity and his lack of hesitation in beating Liam suggests he was also something of a disciplinarian in the physical sense - corporal punishment may have been something Liam had grown up with. But the line from 'The Prodigal: 'It was a son I wanted - a man.' does make me wonder if Liam somehow failed to live up to his father's ideals of masculinity, as well as his expectations of a good son? We know Angel is a good artist; as Angelus his evil is meticulously planned and aestheticised. Perhaps the talents or interests a young Liam displayed were deemed by his father as frivolous of effeminate? I feel like it's sort of hinted at again in 'Spin the Bottle' when he apologises to Cordelia for 'acting womanish'.

Don't you think it explains a lot of Connor's tnature? He was very much like his father when he was young (except the womanizing and drunk behavior). Liam was as rebellious and angst as Connor was!
 
Don't you think it explains a lot of Connor's tnature? He was very much like his father when he was young (except the womanizing and drunk behavior). Liam was as rebellious and angst as Connor was!
Oh yes I think there is a very deliberate paralleling of both father-son relationships with the hatred and the struggles they have making a connection. The difference is that Connor was of course brought up in a Hell dimension so naturally bears that trauma and, Angel I think is consciously trying to avoid repeating his his own father's mistakes and so does constantly make a point of telling Connor he loves him.
 
Oh yes I think there is a very deliberate paralleling of both father-son relationships with the hatred and the struggles they have making a connection. The difference is that Connor was of course brought up in a Hell dimension so naturally bears that trauma and, Angel I think is consciously trying to avoid repeating his his own father's mistakes and so does constantly make a point of telling Connor he loves him.

Yes you have opened my eyes on so much more for the Angel/Connor relationship. Now I love it even more!!!
 
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