2 vampires with a soul - A mistake?

No, Spike getting a soul did not devalue Angel. Made Angel all the better.
 
thrasherpix said:
Unfortunately, it all just feels like Spuffy fan service to me that hijacked the season rather than a serious story.
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Your serious story sounds very cheap to me. If that was how it happened, I am sure everyone would be fuming about how Spike dealt with his soul so much better than Angel and Darla.
 
nightshade said:
It did feel kinda like, well we've done all this to this character, but the fans love him so we need to do something else to keep him here. What would Buffy like, well she likes Angel with a soul so let's give him one of those too!
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I don't see it this way at all. Spike has been stuck in a limbo, caught between two worlds, between monster and man, for two/three seasons by the end of S6. S5 was about showing that he was capable of change, and S6 showed that his capacity for 'human' behavior was always going to be limited because his soullessness prevented him from going the extra mile of truly understanding right from wrong. His getting his soul back is just the natural evolution from that "in between" state, and something that the writers had definitively anticipated.
 
MarieVampSlayer said:
1) The fact that 2 vampires now have souls cheapen Angel arc as he is not different from all his pairs anymore.
3) It makes the soul aspect of Angel laughable and almost not a curse anymore as Spike seems to be rapidly fine with it.
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I personally think that since they got their souls in drastically different ways, they shouldn't be compared to one another. Their unique circumstances add to both their story arcs and show audiences how opposing vampire personalities deal with having a soul.

Not only that, but Angel got cursed with a soul whereas Spike chose to have one. In other words, Angel never got the chance to cope with the possibility of regret from being the murderous Angelus while Spike probably knew there would be some sort of consequence to being re-ensouled.

I don't know, but that's just my take on it.
 
VCA said:
Angel got cursed with a soul whereas Spike chose to have one.
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Exactly. Spike entered into rehab voluntarily whereas Angel's rehab was a court appointed stay. That's why Spike's having a soul is more important to Angel than Spike not having one. Seeing how Spike with a soul is not much different than Spike without it means even more to Angel's character then. Spike having a soul better informs who Angel is.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Interesting...
thetopher said:
I think having Spike with a soul does a good job of highlighting why an ensouled Angel is the way he is and why he is special, there are episodes in AtS S5 that illustrate this very well ('Damage' is great for this). And having two souled vampires can explore the differing ways of what it means to have a soul, to have a demon and a conscience both weighing you down..
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I think my problem is mostly the fact that Spike gets a soul and no really another character. I didn't mind when Darla had one (both times) and found her journey interesting because it was so different from Angel and we really saw that Soul doesn't equal Good. But to me the fact at it was Spike who was already in competition with Angelus for Drusilla was now in competition with Angel for Buffy. It's like really? Can't the guy just make his own journey? He actually did until he got a soul.
 
MarieVampSlayer said:
Would you care to elaborate on that?
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I did above. But to further expand is Angel never wanted a soul, he never wanted to be "a better man" yet when he got a soul he made a conscious decision (after a time) to do so. He did not have to. What should have been a curse he turned into a blessing. Up until seeing Spike get a soul, you thought that it was the soul that transformed Angelus into Angel, but, as the soul did not dramatically alter Spike, it was not. It was Angel who changed Angel and the soul merely assisted with it.

Thus Spike getting a soul made Angel that much deeper of a character.
 
Spanky said:
I did above. But to further expand is Angel never wanted a soul, he never wanted to be "a better man" yet when he got a soul he made a conscious decision (after a time) to do so. He did not have to. What should have been a curse he turned into a blessing. Up until seeing Spike get a soul, you thought that it was the soul that transformed Angelus into Angel, but, as the soul did not dramatically alter Spike, it was not. It was Angel who changed Angel and the soul merely assisted with it.

Thus Spike getting a soul made Angel that much deeper of a character.
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Makes sense. It does make Angel's journey more meaningful if you consider that Angelus is always a part of him even if he is souled.
 
Spanky said:
I did above. But to further expand is Angel never wanted a soul, he never wanted to be "a better man" yet when he got a soul he made a conscious decision (after a time) to do so. He did not have to. What should have been a curse he turned into a blessing. Up until seeing Spike get a soul, you thought that it was the soul that transformed Angelus into Angel, but, as the soul did not dramatically alter Spike, it was not. It was Angel who changed Angel and the soul merely assisted with it.

Thus Spike getting a soul made Angel that much deeper of a character.
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I think you can also see it as a commentary on their respective soulless selves though. Spike isn't as drastically different (though he is different) because he's a grayer character than Angel(us). It just goes to show how truly unredeemable the latter is, and how more 'malleable' the former is.
 
Cheese Slices said:
I think you can also see it as a commentary on their respective soulless selves though. Spike isn't as drastically different (though he is different) because he's a grayer character than Angel(us). It just goes to show how truly unredeemable the latter is, and how more 'malleable' the former is.
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In my mind their soulless selves have nothing to do with it. It's the fact that while one did not ask to "be good" and it was a curse, he made a crusade out of it, when, if he truly wanted, he could have continued to be evil. Especially when you look at the normal humans with souls who did evil.
 
Spanky said:
In my mind their soulless selves have nothing to do with it. It's the fact that while one did not ask to "be good" and it was a curse, he made a crusade out of it, when, if he truly wanted, he could have continued to be evil. Especially when you look at the normal humans with souls who did evil.
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Except that souled Angel isn't a psychopath like the humans we do see commit evil acts, so I don't think he could have been 'evil' without it being seriously damaging to him. It's what we see happen to Spike when he kills people when being triggered.
That said we do witness Angel killing people during the boxer rebellion and after that, so it's true that his being good isn't solely because of the soul, although it's a necessary element.
 
Cheese Slices said:
Except that souled Angel isn't a psychopath like the humans we do see commit evil acts, so I don't think he could have been 'evil' without it being seriously damaging to him.
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I'm sure psychopaths didn't really think about damaging themselves by their actions. I don't think if Angel wanted to continue being evil he would worry much about damaging himself any more than humans do when they commit heinous acts.
 
I think giving Spike a soul was a mistake for several reasons:

1. Spike's storyline became solely about Spuffy from Season 5 onwards, so much so that everything he did was about Buffy in some form. Therefore when he "chose" to get his soul, it was so that he would be more "acceptable "to Buffy. Before people start saying that Buffy didn't ask him to get his soul, no she didn't, however there's no denying that she considers it more acceptable to date Spike now that he isn't soulless eg the comics.

2. Considering the point of Angel being cursed with a soul to make him SUFFER for his wrongdoings as Angelus, I think it's wrong that Spike would inflict that upon himself just so that he would be more "acceptable" to Buffy. Spike was happy soulless so the fact that he feels he has to change that and that it gets played as this big romantic gesture doesn't sit right with me. Spike was happy in Season 2 being soulless, he was happy in Season 4 being soulless, yet as soon as Spuffy rears its ugly head, suddenly being soulless becomes an issue.

3. I think it diminished Angel's uniqueness and his predicament as a souled vampire. Basically Angel was THE vampire with a soul, not A vampire with a soul. What worked about Bangel was that out of all the vampires in the world, Buffy just so happened to find the one that had a soul, and despite a slayer and a vampire being mortal enemies, they were both unique amongst their kind. Also Angel's curse is based around the fact that he can never truly be happy otherwise he reverts to Angelus which is a punishment to both Angel and Angelus because of the cyclical nature of Angel's curse eg he's cursed and feels regret for his unsouled actions, he finds happiness and the curse breaks, he kills and does terrible things, he's cursed again and feels regret for his unsouled actions, etc.

If Angel can just go to a demon in Africa and get a soul without a curse attached, then not only does it make Angel look stupid for not considering that possibility (even if for whatever reason it turns out to be non-viable), but it also takes away the tragedy of Angel in that he is truly doomed to suffer for all eternity because he can't risk being happy.

4. Spike was better soulless and was a more lively character without a soul. In Season 2, people enjoyed his character for who he was, they weren't thinking "he'd be better with a soul". The fact that Spike's character didn't really change post-soul compared to Angel's complete 180, suggests the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted Spike to stay the same (so that the viewers continued to love him) but have him be "better" by giving him a soul. As a result it completely messes up the soul canon and takes away what made Spike great in the first place. Spuffy practically destroyed his character.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Yes, this exactly! With variation :)
Spanky said:
I'm sure psychopaths didn't really think about damaging themselves by their actions. I don't think if Angel wanted to continue being evil he would worry much about damaging himself any more than humans do when they commit heinous acts.
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My point is precisely that psychopaths aren't damaged by their actions, but Angel would be because he isn't one.
 
Cheese Slices said:
My point is precisely that psychopaths aren't damaged by their actions, but Angel would be because he isn't one.
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But if he OPTED to be one, to continue his evil ways, then he would be one. It's a choice he made. Psychopaths were/are damaged by their actions.
 
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