How do you reconcile perceived OOC character behaviour?

[Mrs Gordo]

The only Scooby Giles ever seemed to have any kind of feelings for is Buffy, so it makes sense that he would become resentful if she started to push him away.

I don't agree with this. He was very close to Willow. In s7 he is close to Willow as well.

Angel in Chosen can be considered OOC considering what's going on in his life at the moment, but I understand that they had to cater to the Buffy only viewers and the limited screentime for DB (also I wouldn't have wanted the final episode of Buffy be about Angel the series). In-universe explanation ? I guess Angel compartimentalize a lot of his emotions ?

First, Angel does compartmentalize a great deal and he is also not one to share his feelings unless hard pressed to do so. But I never really understand the argument that Angel is OOC considering where s4 leaves off. The last thing we see in Home is Angel watching Connor happy. That is really all Angel has ever wanted for his son and he was able to give it to him. And we see Angel smile - at the end of Home when he sees Connor happy and well adjusted with his family. So when Angel goes to see Buffy, I think he has a certain amount of peace in his heart from at least knowing that Connor is safe and happy (bonus points for his son no longer trying to blow anything up and averting an apocalypse). And Angel hasn't seen Buffy in over a year so of course, he would be happy to see her. And since they kinda always kiss when they see each other (IWRY, Forever) - that's also not OOC for either of them. So for me as an AtS viewer, the EoD/Chosen scenes work and don't feel out of character.

 

[thrasherpix]

I will throw in a speculation (though I'm sure the writers didn't think of this, it's more of how I'd have started to edit it) that the only way to hide the Key would be to hide it within a human soul, which means a soul had to be stolen from the ether or sacrificed, because only a soul with free will could cloak the Key or resist conjuring and locating spells. That is, try to cast a spell to locate the key and it fizzles if there's a human soul around it, try to conjure it and it fails because it's not designed to overcome the free will of a human. (Hmm...can you imagine a spell to conjure from within the living aura of a soul? A sorcerer could then teleport your heart to him rather than sending a beastie or telekinetic blades at you!)

As for putting it into Sunnydale...I suppose distance could be a factor. Perhaps a spell of that power requires a Hellmouth in the vicinity and so they could not project the Key outside of the "Hellmouth Zone" (not even to another one), at least not on in time to beat Glory beating down their door.

Again, it's just how I'd start to explain it, not what the writers had in mind at all.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Re the OP: I think that the OOC character beats for my favorite characters are the most difficult for me to take. This is why AtS s3 is so tough for me to watch because Angel, my favorite character, is so incredibly strange. And I find myself confused. It seems to me as the viewer like such an obvious change that it takes me out of the story. I feel like I'm watching DB for bits and pieces there.

Ultimately, I try my best to find "Watsonian" reasons for changes but I do struggle sometimes. I struggle with Angel in s3 and then when I hit Twilight - I hit a wall that I cannot climb. It requires way too much in the way of headcanon on my part. There are some things which I think at least help me get to some of the Twilight story elements but for the most part, it's just too obvious to me that Angel's character was completely sacrificed for the story they wanted to tell. So for me there is a strange disconnect where Twilight!Angel lives in a weird suspension of disbelief. I don't pay too much attention to it because if I do I won't be able to enjoy the comics. I think of the comics as canon-lite anyway so it stings less than if it was on the show.

Buffy in s7 is one I struggle with a bit although to a much lessor extent as I do see the watsonian reason for her behavior as the "general Buffy" storyline. I do generally try to find in story explanations for all behavior but sometimes I just plain don't even believe my own headcanons. I try to remember that no show is perfect, no story is perfect and that my perception of a character may be different from other people's perceptions so what doesn't work for me may work for others. For example, St. Cordy worked for some viewers. Not me.

 

[HowiMetdaSlayer]

Hmmm let me think...

 

[Cheese Slices]

I don't agree with this. He was very close to Willow. In s7 he is close to Willow as well.



First, Angel does compartmentalize a great deal and he is also not one to share his feelings unless hard pressed to do so. But I never really understand the argument that Angel is OOC considering where s4 leaves off. The last thing we see in Home is Angel watching Connor happy. That is really all Angel has ever wanted for his son and he was able to give it to him. And we see Angel smile - at the end of Home when he sees Connor happy and well adjusted with his family. So when Angel goes to see Buffy, I think he has a certain amount of peace in his heart from at least knowing that Connor is safe and happy (bonus points for his son no longer trying to blow anything up and averting an apocalypse). And Angel hasn't seen Buffy in over a year so of course, he would be happy to see her. And since they kinda always kiss when they see each other (IWRY, Forever) - that's also not OOC for either of them. So for me as an AtS viewer, the EoD/Chosen scenes work and don't feel out of character.

They also don't in Sanctuary/The Yoko factor, so I'd say "often" is more accurate 😉

As I said, I can live with it, but I still think it's taking a great deal of whistling and eye squinting. He still has a looot of miserable stuff to deal with. But again, I'm willing to just "oh, well" it.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I don't know what it is like to manage a stable of writers who are supposed to write stories based on following other writers' efforts but I have managed people before and that has put me firmly in the Doylist camp. (For those who are new to the terms "Doylist" and "Watsonian", these are terms from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's "Sherlock Holmes". If there is an explanation that arises from actions of the characters, this is Watsonian, from Dr. Watson. If you can only explain what is going on by looking at the writers, this is Doylist.) One of the contentious items in Buffy and Angel is that there does not seem to be a series "bible", a document that gives all the characteristics of the characters so the writers cannot write episodes where someone is blatantly OOC.

Why does it take us until Season 7 to reveal that slayer power comes from the infusion of demon essence?
Why do we not get a better in-story rationalization for Giles leaving in Season 6?
Why does the normally brooding Angel turn into a goofball in Season 3 of his own show?
Why does Cordelia become Saint Cordy in Angel?
Why do we need the "deus-ex-machina" Guardian, the scythe and the medallion in Season 7?

I don't believe there are any satisfactory Watsonian explanations for these items.

I do believe these programs are stories of the rise and fall of the title characters. General Buffy successfully led the fight against the mayor in Season 3, her high point. Buffy the Ditz led the battle in Season 7 and although I fully support giving slayer power to all potentials, her story is one of someone who has lost her capacity for logic and is only helped along by the Guardian, the scythe and the medallion, without which, she and the potentials would have been annihilated as a result of her own stupidity, especially giving free rein to Spike when he was triggered. Angel led his team of demon hunters only to fall prey to joining Wolfram & Hart in Season 5. He joins the Circle of the Black Thorn by killing Drogyn, an innocent, as if he was joining some of the notorious street gangs that require a kill to join. Then he wipes them out but brings havoc on Los Angeles.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

If Buffy was willing to sacrifice Angel, the love of her life, to save the world, WHY would she do an about-face when it came to Dawn? Why would this Slayer/Champion suddenly decide that Dawn was more important than everyone else on the planet? Fake memories or not, "sister" or not, it felt REALLY out of character...the true Buffy, as I came to know her, would've let Dawn jump. Or push her. Or throw her in. With regret, of course.

And Spike hiding out in the basement, acting like a complete wanker...a crazy, gibbering, emotional mess. Oh yes, he has a soul! Whatever dude. That wasn't the Spike I knew. Wait, strike that. It wasn't Spike, period. Hey writers, good job killing a character.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

He was very close to Willow.

No, he isn't. He treats her like air, unless he is yelling at her.

 

[EarthLogic]

If Buffy was willing to sacrifice Angel, the love of her life, to save the world, WHY would she do an about-face when it came to Dawn? Why would this Slayer/Champion suddenly decide that Dawn was more important than everyone else on the planet?

Buffy explains it quite well herself:

BUFFY: I've always stopped them. Always won.
GILES: Yes.
BUFFY: I sacrificed Angel to save the world.

(Cut to close angle on Buffy's face.)

BUFFY: I loved him so much. But I knew ... what was right. I don't have that any more. I don't understand. I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices. If everything just gets stripped away. I don't see the point. I just wish that... (tearfully) I just wish my mom was here.

(She gets up, walks a few paces away, turns to face Giles.)

BUFFY: The spirit guide told me ... that death is my gift. Guess that means a Slayer really is just a killer after all.
GILES: I think you're wrong about that.
BUFFY: It doesn't matter. If Dawn dies, I'm done with it. I'm quitting.

To put it simply: She's f-ing sick and tired of making sacrifices and losing people she loves. She can't take the pain and burden of it anymore. I would think that would be understandable to everyone. It's not like she's just thought 'Dawn vs the world..hmm..I pick Dawn', it's that she's fed up with the accumulated personal loss over the years that she's been fighting; she just can't bear it anymore.

Post automatically merged: May 9, 2018

No, he isn't. He treats her like air, unless he is yelling at her.

Since when? They got on quite well during the high school and college years. He clearly cared about her when he though she'd been turned:



Then there's this in S6:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnwa09kxd21qabopy.gif

It's only after he's discovered she has used dangerous magicks to resurrect Buffy that he yells at her, which IMO he was quite right to do (though I know the two of us are going to disagree on that). But then he's also crucial to helping bring her back from the 'dark side' at the end of the season and helps her recover into S7.

How is any of that treating her like air?😕

 

[joseph]

Speaking of the TV show, I usually accept the writers vision of the characters. I think they do a a good job of keeping them consistent. For example, I never felt anyone acted OOC in S6.

I never found Giles to be an admirable person. I don't understand why people have such a particular problem with him in S7.

never watched season 7 it should have ended in season 6 after they killed Tara that was unforgiveable.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@EarthLogic Oh, I could write a book about all the times Giles let me down. Of course he is sad when he thinks Willow has died, because he knows the next time someone needs to cast a dangerous and ethically dubious spell, he will have to do it himself. Earlier in the day, he bosses her around as if she was his 50's secretary. Also, in S1, he tells her not to mention his name if she gets in trouble with the police for the hacking he asks her to do.

Willow tries to console Giles after Jenny died. Giles refuses to return the favour after Oz leaves and yells at her for being lax in her duties. I don't know why he feels entitled to order her around.

In Flooded, he refuses to see the perspective of a frightened teenager left to care for a younger teenager after her best friend died. When you consider all the stupid stuff Giles has done, it is really difficult to see where he gets his moral high ground. Then he even refuses to accept Willow's olive branch and just leaves in silence.

Giles is selfish, entitled, temperamental, jealous, forgetful of his own past and blind to everyone in the world except Buffy and Jenny. It hurts me that Willow works so hard for his approval and love and gets nothing in return.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Buffy explains it quite well herself:

BUFFY: I've always stopped them. Always won.
GILES: Yes.
BUFFY: I sacrificed Angel to save the world.

(Cut to close angle on Buffy's face.)

BUFFY: I loved him so much. But I knew ... what was right. I don't have that any more. I don't understand. I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices. If everything just gets stripped away. I don't see the point. I just wish that... (tearfully) I just wish my mom was here.

(She gets up, walks a few paces away, turns to face Giles.)

BUFFY: The spirit

To put it simply: She's f-ing sick and tired of making sacrifices and losing people she loves. She can't take the pain and burden of it anymore. I would think that would be understandable to everyone.

Bad writing and maudlin sentiment does not excuse character assination. She's the Slayer, not a Taylor Swift lyric.

The writers made a bad choice, and nearly ruined the Buffy that most people came to love. If we'd wanted a Lifetime TV movie, we'd be watching that.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@Mrs Gordo Sorry, if you feel I am raving like a lunatic. Giles and Willow are a sore spot for me. I am baffled by how much people like him.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Buffy explains it quite well herself:

BUFFY: I've always stopped them. Always won.
GILES: Yes.
BUFFY: I sacrificed Angel to save the world.

(Cut to close angle on Buffy's face.)

BUFFY: I loved him so much. But I knew ... what was right. I don't have that any more. I don't understand. I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices. If everything just gets stripped away. I don't see the point. I just wish that... (tearfully) I just wish my mom was here.

(She gets up, walks a few paces away, turns to face Giles.)

BUFFY: The spirit guide told me ... that death is my gift. Guess that means a Slayer really is just a killer after all.
GILES: I think you're wrong about that.
BUFFY: It doesn't matter. If Dawn dies, I'm done with it. I'm quitting.

To put it simply: She's f-ing sick and tired of making sacrifices and losing people she loves. She can't take the pain and burden of it anymore. I would think that would be understandable to everyone. It's not like she's just thought 'Dawn vs the world..hmm..I pick Dawn', it's that she's fed up with the accumulated personal loss over the years that she's been fighting; she just can't bear it anymore.

On the other hand, if she doesn't have it in her anymore there is a simple solution. Just stop and retire. And I don't mean the retirement she chose in The Gift (suicide). If she can't make the hard calls, there are others who might. And it really doesn't matter so much at that point as Dawn had already chosen for herself to jump. But Buffy wanted out no matter what. She wanted to die because she wanted the hardship that is life to end. Everyone loses loved ones, it's a freaking fact of life. Boo hoo, cry me a river little slayer. So many people in our world have much worse fates than her. Oh Dawn, life sucks and I hate it so I'm checking out but you have fun with the suck that is life. Kthxbye.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

@Mrs Gordo Sorry, if you feel I am raving like a lunatic. Giles and Willow are a sore spot for me. I am baffled by how much people like him.

I was more referring to your "broken record" comment. But I understand sore spots. I have plenty.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Bad writing and maudlin sentiment does not excuse character assination. She's the Slayer, not a Taylor Swift lyric.

The writers made a bad choice, and nearly ruined the Buffy that most people came to love. If we'd wanted a Lifetime TV movie, we'd be watching that.

hum...care to explain ?

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

hum...care to explain ?

Pretty sure I just did.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Pretty sure I just did.

Sorry, didn't see your previous message. I don't want to go off topic, but I'll just put this here : "No. She's not (my sister). She's more than that. She's me. The monks made her out of me. I hold her ... and I feel closer to her than ... (looks down, sighs) It's not just the memories they built. It's physical. Dawn ... is a part of me. The only part that I- "
Dawn is the part of Buffy that she doesn't want to lose, no matter the price.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Dawn is the part of Buffy that she doesn't want to lose, no matter the price.

So? Does that make Dawn better than the billions of other people on the planet? At least those people were born (does Dawn even have a soul since she isn't human and was never born?), have loved ones of their own etc. What makes Dawn so freaking special? Buffy cares about her, big deal. Again, if Buffy doesn't want to sacrifice Dawn there are people willing to do it, including Dawn.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I am not Dawn's biggest fan in season 5 (in season 6 I think she fades into the background but I really enjoy her in 7). Regardless, in retrospect, I really liked that they brought Dawn in because the metaphor works very well. Dawn is a living breathing representation of Buffy's humanity. It is not OOC to me if you keep this metaphor in mind that Buffy would be unwilling to sacrifice that at the end. She will sacrifice her loves, her relationships, etc but she won't sacrifice her very humanity.

If you strip away the metaphor I can see how people have problems with Buffy's decision here (especially because if there is no world at all then what is the point of Dawn living...). So I think the story requires you to look further than the literal. Ultimately, if Dawn had not been "made of" Buffy (her blood etc.) so that Buffy could jump in her place (if that had not been the plot device) I think Buffy would have allowed Dawn to sacrifice herself but maybe she would have jumped with her. But the way it ended was perfect. Buffy, the Slayer, has to save the world. Buffy's humanity (Dawn) gets to live.