How do you reconcile perceived OOC character behaviour?

When a character's behaviour takes a noticeably different/odd turn, how do you process this change? Do you find a way to make it make sense in line with their previous characterisation or do you find yourself taken out of the story and forced to see it simply as terrible writing?

I don't think it's as simple as character traits. I think "inconsistencies" are often the result of repressed wishes and fears threatening to emerge - or that the character is being used more metaphorically/symbolically than literally. I don't have a problem accommodating either. I'm never taken out of story because I'm never fully immersed in plot. Plot discourse is just as important to me as plot events. Ideo-aesthetic function is as important as character.

For me, the most overt example is Angel in the comics. I’ve seen many readers/fans regard his behaviour as Twilight as entirely consistent with his character, a view which I personally find baffling. I found the arc a gross exaggeration where a few traits were seized upon and made to stand for his whole character.

Yup - sorry - I'm one of those. 😉 I have no problem reconciling the arc. I don't have a problem with A11 and I think the Giles mini is bloody fantastic. In fact, aside from minor errors in continuity, I'm astounded by the coherence/consistency of the verse. Some traits may seem minor but that's because the magnitude of them is either unconsciously repressed or consciously supressed.

The Watsonian/Doylist trope I find limited. In addition, I work alongside writers - screenwriters/script writers, poets, novelists and journalists - of national and international renown. I've never considered any of them inept so I'm not a fan of the "bad writing" line of reasoning.
 
I have no problem reconciling the arc

You have no problem with the notion that Angel would abandon his only son - the person he loves the most- to a world destined to be destroyed so that he and Buffy could go off and live in some Eden paradise?
 
RomanticSoul
RomanticSoul
If someone doesn't get Angel and tries to distract from that fact with 'pretty words'...no they don't get it.
The Watsonian/Doylist trope I find limited. In addition, I work alongside writers - screenwriters/script writers, poets, novelists and journalists - of national and international renown. I've never considered any of them inept so I'm not a fan of the "bad writing" line of reasoning.
It's not about considering the writers 'inept' in the sense that they lack skill or talent - they obviously don't. It's more about the sense that they've made a writing decision which has failed in some way - either failed to demonstrate what it intended or to engage in a certain way, or to present a character in a way that is consistent with previous depictions. It doesn't mean they're inept overall. And as you probably know TV is a fast-moving industry with a number of cogs in the wheel. Writers have to make decisions based on time-limits, schedules, actor availability, production factors, fan reception - any number of things, and sometimes those decisions are poorly judged resulting in lack of continuity, plot holes or just plain cringey scenes which are embarrasing to watch (I'm looking at you, Ghostdelia!)
 
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Taake
Taake
don't even remind me about Ghostdelia!
As a fan of professional wrestling, I'm used to it. But really, most shared fantasy worlds present the work as a dramatization, not the actual events, which are in platonic ideal. Like Buffy is based on the Watcher's diaries, and the show is only a retelling.
 
As a fan of professional wrestling, I'm used to it. But really, most shared fantasy worlds present the work as a dramatization, not the actual events, which are in platonic ideal. Like Buffy is based on the Watcher's diaries, and the show is only a retelling.

That first sentence really threw me for a second! I was like, "Wait...huh?" lol
 
EarthLogic
EarthLogic
Me too. Haha!
You have no problem with the notion that Angel would abandon his only son - the person he loves the most- to a world destined to be destroyed so that he and Buffy could go off and live in some Eden paradise?

No - not if you take unconscious desires, Liam's relationship with his father and things about Kathy he's forgotten to remember, into account. I've no intention of trying to persuade you - all I'm saying is - I have no problem reconciling it. Oh...and I'd season the mix with a pinch of Marx' 18th Braumarie. I think Whedon's using him to articulate a particular perspective on history.

It's not about considering the writers 'inept' in the sense that they lack skill or talent - they obviously don't. It's more about the sense that they've made a writing decision which has failed in some way - either failed to demonstrate what it intended or to engage in a certain way, or to present a character in a way that is consistent with previous depictions. It doesn't mean they're inept overall. And as you probably know TV is a fast-moving industry with a number of cogs in the wheel. Writers have to make decisions based on time-limits, schedules, actor availability, production factors, fan reception - any number of things, and sometimes those decisions are poorly judged resulting in lack of continuity, plot holes or just plain cringey scenes which are embarrasing to watch (I'm looking at you, Ghostdelia!)

I don't disagree with the demands of the industry but you're being far more generous to the writers than some fans. I'm simply saying I don't see a serious lack of continuity - quite the opposite (except for a few blips). I find it philosophically coherent. I think we could be in for some surprises apropos the soul but I think that was predictable. I dunno...maybe I look for different things in a text. 😕
 
So? Does that make Dawn better than the billions of other people on the planet? At least those people were born (does Dawn even have a soul since she isn't human and was never born?), have loved ones of their own etc. What makes Dawn so freaking special? Buffy cares about her, big deal. Again, if Buffy doesn't want to sacrifice Dawn there are people willing to do it, including Dawn.

Because, again, it's as much (if not more) about Buffy herself than Dawn.
 
I don't disagree with the demands of the industry but you're being far more generous to the writers than some fans.
Perhaps, but those were just some examples, especially as I had in mind what happened with Cordelia on AtS. I do believe that sometimes it's simply a bad narrative choice by the writers themselves, but I judge each instance within its own context.
 
Think I somehow posted in wrong thread. Was supposed to be in favorite couple. Had issue with backspace button and lost entire post. Guess when I went to re-post, I somehow ended up in wrong thread. Please disregard earlier post. Sorry. 😳
 
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Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
*giggles and points*
thetopher
thetopher
*pats head fondly* aawwww.
Perhaps, but those were just some examples, especially as I had in mind what happened with Cordelia on AtS. I do believe that sometimes it's simply a bad narrative choice by the writers themselves, but I judge each instance within its own context.

Also - have to take into account that the networks sometimes have their own demands. It's common knowledge the network will sometimes make demands or suggestions.
 
No - not if you take unconscious desires, Liam's relationship with his father and things about Kathy he's forgotten to remember, into account. I've no intention of trying to persuade you - all I'm saying is - I have no problem reconciling it. Oh...and I'd season the mix with a pinch of Marx' 18th Braumarie. I think Whedon's using him to articulate a particular perspective on history.
How does any of that play into the Angel we last saw/read about before Whedon hired someone who knew nothing about the character? You can say all of that nonsense (and it is nonsense because anyone who understands Angel knows Connor>>>>>>>>>>Buffy) all day but it doesn't line up with AtS or even AtF Angel.

Because, again, it's as much (if not more) about Buffy herself than Dawn.
I don't care who it's about. And guess what, neither does the world. Buffy's personal issues/trauma or whatever shouldn't get billions of people killed. That's villain territory last I checked. That this whole Monk/Key/Glory/The Gift story doesn't even make sense just makes the whole thing even worse. But generally, if you can't do what needs to be done, step aside. If you stop others from doing it, dooming billions of your own free will makes you a villain.
 
It's a literary device where the story you are reading is not original, but rather a paraphrase of an older primary source. For example, the Lord of the Rings is based on book that Sam's family kept, the Red Book of Westmarch. Star Trek is based on Kirk's logs, Star Wars on the Journal of the Whills. Buffy the series was based on Giles diaries, any inconstitancies are due to problems with the retelling, and a "true" version of events, rests somewhere in the dreams of Joss Whedon.
 
It's a literary device where the story you are reading is not original, but rather a paraphrase of an older primary source. For example, the Lord of the Rings is based on book that Sam's family kept, the Red Book of Westmarch. Star Trek is based on Kirk's logs, Star Wars on the Journal of the Whills. Buffy the series was based on Giles diaries, any inconstitancies are due to problems with the retelling, and a "true" version of events, rests somewhere in the dreams of Joss Whedon.
I know what the literary device is, i just meant where are you getting the idea that the show is based on Giles' diaries from? Is that just your headcanon?
 
How does any of that play into the Angel we last saw/read about before Whedon hired someone who knew nothing about the character? You can say all of that nonsense (and it is nonsense because anyone who understands Angel knows Connor>>>>>>>>>>Buffy) all day but it doesn't line up with AtS or even AtF Angel.

Let's agree to differ shall we? The OP asked how I reconciled apparent contradictions and I gave my reasoning. Whether you agree is immaterial.
 
I am not Dawn's biggest fan in season 5 (in season 6 I think she fades into the background but I really enjoy her in 7). Regardless, in retrospect, I really liked that they brought Dawn in because the metaphor works very well. Dawn is a living breathing representation of Buffy's humanity. It is not OOC to me if you keep this metaphor in mind that Buffy would be unwilling to sacrifice that at the end. She will sacrifice her loves, her relationships, etc but she won't sacrifice her very humanity.
That used to be Willow's role. Willow used to be the representation of what Buffy was fighting for. The good innocent people in the world. Ah Prophecy Girl, such a superior episode. That's who Buffy CHOSE to fight for. But apparently once Willow became witchy, she couldn't fullfill that role anymore and they needed a replacement. Dawn was nothing more than a cheap and useless Willow replacement. The reason Buffy fights, the innocent people of the world, the damsel, the loved one. And since it's very questionable how much choice was involved for Buffy where Dawn is concerned, give me her free will choice instead of the programmed one any day.

Ultimately, if Dawn had not been "made of" Buffy (her blood etc.) so that Buffy could jump in her place (if that had not been the plot device) I think Buffy would have allowed Dawn to sacrifice herself but maybe she would have jumped with her. But the way it ended was perfect. Buffy, the Slayer, has to save the world. Buffy's humanity (Dawn) gets to live.
First of all I don't buy Dawn being made from Buffy's blood. She looks nothing like Buffy. But if I ignore that and just go with 'it's magic', it still doesn't change the fact that Dawn is the Key, not Buffy. Dawn is the one with Key blood and only Key blood can open and close the portal. Buffy should have not have been able to take her place, period. I don't care for mystical slayer explanations, especially since 'death is your gift' can be interpreted any number of ways, including 'death is a gift to Buffy'. Which is exactly what happened, death was a gift to Buffy because she was finally free from life and up in 'heaven', at rest.

Buffy didn't allow Dawn to jump, that's the whole point that made Buffy a villain in that Finale. Before Buffy had her retcon nonsense revelation, Buffy had refused to let Dawn jump. When there was no other way to save the world, Buffy stopped Dawn from doing what needed to be done. Buffy chose herself over the world. I mean seriously, not wanting Dawn to jump just so Dawn could live a few minutes longer and then die along with everyone else anyway...that makes the kind of sense that doesn't.

For me the ending will always be nonsense, just like the whole damn episode. I mean, where the hell was Buffy while everybody was busy fighting and trying to stop the ritual? Drinking coffee? Getting her nails done? While her people were busy fighting minions and the Buffybot was fighting Glory...where was Buffy? Not double teaming Glory that's for sure. Or I don't know...going up the damn tower to stop Doc and the ritual right there. Apparently, she took a leave of absence.
 
That used to be Willow's role. Willow used to be the representation of what Buffy was fighting for. The good innocent people in the world. Ah Prophecy Girl, such a superior episode. That's who Buffy CHOSE to fight for. But apparently once Willow became witchy, she couldn't fullfill that role anymore and they needed a replacement.
And why exactly is that a bad thing? Why can't roles can't be shifted as the narrative progresses and the characters develop? Why should Willow continue to represent Buffy's humanity through 7 seasons? Frankly it makes far more sense that as Willow grows up and has her own experiences and story that her relevance to Buffy's story changes. In the early seasons she was innocent and naive so she worked well in that role, but no one stays like that forever. As Willow grows up she becomes more powerful and makes her own mistakes so she just wouldn't be able to function so well as symbolic of Buffy's humanity anymore; she isn't an innocent and she isn't a damsel. It makes total sense for Dawn to take over from that. And really, for a show that is supposed to be about female experience and growing up it would be an absolute waste of a character - not to mention utterly boring - to have Willow stay stuck in that role forever.

Buffy didn't allow Dawn to jump, that's the whole point that made Buffy a villain in that Finale.
How does sacrificing herself in the end instead of her sister make Buffy a villain?😵😵 She still saved the world! You seem to believe that just because Buffy wasn't willing to kill Dawn that she was willing to let the world go to hell instead, when that is in no way indicated by the story. When Buffy warns the rest of the gang not to come near Dawn it doesn't mean she's planning on sacrificing the world come the 11th hour. It's clear that she's banking on stopping Glory before that even has a chance to come about because she doesn't want to contemplate the alternative. It may not be completely rational or logical but that's not the point. She's not S7 Buffy who is willing to make those hard decisions, she's S5 Buffy who has had to endure a lot and doesn't want to lose one more person.

For me the ending will always be nonsense, just like the whole damn episode. I mean, where the hell was Buffy while everybody was busy fighting and trying to stop the ritual? Drinking coffee? Getting her nails done? While her people were busy fighting minions and the Buffybot was fighting Glory...where was Buffy? Not double teaming Glory that's for sure. Or I don't know...going up the damn tower to stop Doc and the ritual right there. Apparently, she took a leave of absence.
I think you just have to attribute the apparent lack of Buffy in some fight scenes to mistakes in scene structure and filming/editing decisions - the narrative implies that she was there in the middle of the battle even if she is offscreen sometimes, so we should accept that. You can criticise the flaws in how those scenes are written or put together, you can say that there should have been more focus on her side of the fight but you can't just assume she'd dissappeared or run off somewhere because we have no evidence of that at all* - plus it makes no sense.

* I know you're probably just being dismissive because you don't like how the episode works but still you seem to be blaming the character for some perceived absence rather than the writing.
 
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And why exactly is that a bad thing? Why can't roles can't be shifted as the narrative progresses and the characters develop? Why should Willow continue to represent Buffy's humanity through 7 seasons? Frankly it makes far more sense that as Willow grows up and has her own experiences and story that her relevance to Buffy's story changes. In the early seasons she was innocent and naive so she worked well in that role, but no one stays like that forever. As Willow grows up she becomes more powerful and makes her own mistakes so she just wouldn't be able to function so well as symbolic of Buffy's humanity anymore; she isn't an innocent and she isn't a damsel. It makes total sense for Dawn to take over from that. And really, for a show that is supposed to be about female experience and growing up it would be an absolute waste of a character - not to mention utterly boring - to have Willow stay stuck in that role forever.
Way to overlook the important thing in what you quoted, which was easy to spot since it was in capital letters. Willow was someone Buffy CHOSE to care about and she was also a representation of what Buffy was fighting for. And where, pray tell, did I say that Willow had to stay that for the rest of her life? Dawn was literally the replacement for every role that Willow had in Buffy's life and story. And I don't have to like that, mainly because one involved choice and the other didn't. And because the Scoobie bond was shot to oblivion with Dawn's introduction despite what nonsense the show sprouts about family (no B/W/X scene in S5 is all the evidence I need). They replaced her chosen family with one that she didn't chose and arguably (depending on where you stand as too how far the monks took it) was programmed to chose above everything else.

How does sacrificing herself in the end instead of her sister make Buffy a villain?😵😵
Where in the everloving hell did I say that? How about you stop misquoting me or don't put words in my mouth. Buffy was a villain because of the decision she made prior to the asspull, retcon (that shouldn't have worked). How much clearer do I have to write that? Another novel?

And was Buffy sacrificing herself supposed to make her heroic or a hero? For me there is nothing heroic in suicide. Which is exactly what that was. Buffy wanted out (Willow's walk through Buffy's mind pretty much proved that, as did her talk with Giles). And that is how I interpret 'death is your gift'. It's not a gift to the world or her sister or whatever. It's a gift to Buffy. That she ended up saving the world in the process doesn't matter because there were other ways. PG Buffy was heroic because she didn't want to die. The Gift Buffy wanted it all to end, so good for her she got what she wanted. She got her death gift.

She still saved the world! You seem to believe that just because Buffy wasn't willing to kill Dawn that she was willing to let the world go to hell instead, when that is in no way indicated by the story.
Yes it was. When Buffy didn't have her nonsensical stupid way out yet, Dawn was willing to sacrifice herself. Buffy told her no, despite Buffy having NO OTHER OPTION at that time. So Buffy chose herself over the world. Sorry but there is no other way to look at it. She was willing to let the world die, and Dawn with it btw, just because she couldn't bring herself to kill Dawn/watch Dawn sacrifice herself. And I'm not going to cut her any slack on that.

She's not S7 Buffy who is willing to make those hard decisions, she's S5 Buffy who has had to endure a lot and doesn't want to lose one more person.
Season 7 Buffy is a monster who would gladly sick vampires on humans if she has a bad day. Hell, she gladly lets monsters go on murder sprees if she used to bone said monsters. Or houses monsters in her home that would happily chomp on anyone in the house. That's not hard decisions, that's an egomaniac with no morality. And a grade a brainless moron.

And if S5 Buffy doesn't want to lose another person. Open a freaking portal to another world and leave this rotten Earth dimension, then she and Dawn would be save. Go to a world full with lollipops and candy canes and puppies or something.

I think you just have to attribute the apparent lack of Buffy in some fight scenes to mistakes in scene structure and filming/editing decisions - the narrative implies that she was there in the middle of the battle even if she is offscreen sometimes, so we should accept that. You can criticise the flaws in how those scenes are written or put together, you can say that there should have been more focus on her side of the fight but you can't just assume she'd dissappeared or run off somewhere because we have no evidence of that at all* - plus it makes no sense.
Buffy is nowhere to be seen on any of the battle fields/action sites = Buffy not there. She is literally NOWHERE to be seen. It's really easy logic. You think that's the only stupid thing in this episode? Because it's not. When did Xander get x-ray vision? What's with the sudden upgrade from troll to troll god? I could go on and name even more things but why bother.

* I know you're probably just being dismissive because you don't like how the episode works but still you seem to be blaming the character for some perceived absence rather than the writing.
I just can't stand the episode (or Season) because it's just dumb and hurting my brain with the constant attack of 'stupid'. My question is why does a different opinion bother so many people? Again for emotional people it works. I'm a logical person first. Doesn't mean something has to be sound logic for me to get emotional. But when I'm distracted by too much stupid or OOC or both, chances of me getting emotional are slim to none.
 
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@RomanticSoul That's all well and good but how are any of these elements not present in the previous seasons ?
There were always plot holes and incoherences. Also, she couldn't kill Angel even though, unlike Dawn, he was evil and directly responsible for many people's death. She doesn't kill him in Innocence, even though he almost succeeded in letting the Judge kills every human being on earth, and there are literally 8 episodes during which she does not go after him. It's a necessary evil, writing wise, in order to build up momentum and tell a compelling story.
 
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