How do you reconcile perceived OOC character behaviour?

[The Ferg]

I'm sorry but no one in this world will ever convince me that Angel goes from the above to - screw the world and my kid I'm gonna go live in Eden. There is a disconnect there that is nothing short of stupid.

The only way I can wrap my head around it is if I tell myself that literal years passed between AtF and BS8, and Angel had simply came to the conclusion that there was no other option but to drive straight toward Twilight.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

The only way I can wrap my head around it is if I tell myself that literal years passed between AtF and BS8, and Angel had simply came to the conclusion that there was no other option but to drive straight toward Twilight.

But we know that there wasn't right? We know it's been a year from BTVS s7 right? And Hell-A just happened. And even if we assume 2 years or 10 years - how can we wrap our head around the notion that Angel would be ok with leaving Connor behind ever? And not just that but be HAPPY about it. It boggles my mind. I can not comprehend it.

 

[EarthLogic]

OMG. I said blood in my post. IT'S RIGHT THERE. Eggs was used, because that's what the real, non-magical equivalent would be in a non-supernatural world where there is a thing called medical rape.

But i think you're exaggerating the issue completely by equating the use of Buffy's blood to real life forced removal of eggs. You can argue there's a consent issue with Dawn's creation, yes, but it's just not the same as the kind of bodily /reproductive violation women in the real world go through.

. You can't prove Joyce's tumor/death had nothing to do with what the monks did. Just like I can't prove that it did. So I'm allowed per the show, just like you, to come up wth my own explanation.

Which is why I said it was a decent theory.

 

[EarthLogic]

But we know that there wasn't right? We know it's been a year from BTVS s7 right? And Hell-A just happened. And even if we assume 2 years or 10 years - how can we wrap our head around the notion that Angel would be ok with leaving Connor behind ever? And not just that but be HAPPY about it. It boggles my mind. I can not comprehend it.

Didn't they at one point give the explanation that he planned to 'bring everyone over' or some crap like that?

 

[The Ferg]

But we know that there wasn't right? We know it's been a year from BTVS s7 right? And Hell-A just happened.

Is that official? I always was under the assumption that BS8 was at least two years after S7. I could just be making wild assumptions, but I thought AS5 took one full year, AtF/Spike took up another year, then BS8 happened.

 

[Dora]

OMG. I said blood in my post. IT'S RIGHT THERE. Eggs was used, because that's what the real, non-magical equivalent would be in a non-supernatural world where there is a thing called medical rape.

And for the record, as we have had this discussion plenty of times before on this forum. You can't prove Joyce's tumor/death had nothing to do with what the monks did. Just like I can't prove that it did. So I'm allowed per the show, just like you, to come up wth my own explanation.

I give up. I'm tired of people ignoring what I write or trying to spin it into something I didn't say, or call me crazy or what I write fanon just to dismiss my opinion. Whatever. I'm done.

Totally agree RS total lack of consent in the issue of Dawn no matter how she was introduced and never explained how the Monks got Buffy blood ( Dracul poss ) the whole thing was ridiculous you do not have to think of much IE School records, birth certificate ETC all to much to comprehend hence My belief a natural birth if we had to have Dawn at all ,
I always put a lot of Buffy jumping down to Spike (A) the pathetic fight against the Doc and (B) his conversation with Buffy explaining all Slayers get a death wish
Psssss RS......... Buffy and the Buffy bot was the same person unlike James Marsters, Sarah has the ability to act another person other than herself

 

[Icarium]

I mean, the monks are powerful enough to change reality on a grand scale (mass mind-altering, giving The Key a form) so they should be powerful enough to just open a portal and let Glory go home or expell her from Earth's dimension. Boom. Problem solved. If the puny beings of AtS can open portals every Sunday, surely the monks could. But nope, they found it better to steal Buffy's eggs (without her consent), I mean blood, create a child with her eggs (without her consent) and then forced Buffy/Joyce to take care of and protect said child (without their consent) and putting their life in mortal danger which definitely killed Buffy and probably killed Joyce. And topped it off with altering the minds of hundreds, if not thousands to accommodate Dawn's place in the universe without their consent. And they didn't even have the decency to pay child support. But it was accepted as the 'right thing' by the narrative via the characters. All these violations? Pft who cares. The child is what matters, nothing else. Just ask Buffy in The Gift who chooses Dawn over the world.

And the icing on the cake - it was all hilariously pointless anyway. Not only did the stupid monks lead Glory to Sunnydale but she was vastly stronger than Buffy. Giving the Key to a Slayer was like entrusting a little kid to protect something from a MMA champion. I know it worked through a million plot contrivances but it really shouldn't have worked. The monks' magic was stronger than Buffy's superpowers anyway, the whole thing was a ridiculous excuse of bringing a teenage character in the show because the network executives worried the teen demographics won't be so interested in the show now that the Scoobies were all out of their teens.

Finally the narrative is not saying 'the child is what matters'; that's simply not the theme of the story.

Yes, it is. It's spelled out in an extremely unsubtle, after school special way too.

Metaphorically-speaking Dawn represents Buffy's humanity so her saviour of Dawn in a season where she fears her role as a Slayer is making her a cold killer is important to reaffirming Buffy's connection with her human side

Reaffirm what? This notion of Slayer being a cold killer was something that came completely out of left field in season 5 in order to give some stupid connection between Buffy and Spikey, the lovable serial killer. And it was nothing but lip service anyway since Buffy didn't kill any humans. In short, there was no need to reaffirm anything since Buffy hadn't lost her connection to her human side in the first place.

You can argue there's a consent issue with Dawn's creation, yes, but it's just not the same as the kind of bodily /reproductive violation women in the real world go through.

It's not the same, sure... it's worse in some respects. In the real world you can't hypnotize someone to love and take care of someone. Even in countries where abortions are banned, women are allowed to give their babies for adoption usually. Buffy and Joyce had no such option until the truth about Dawn was revealed (quite accidentally, by the way).

And what's worse, had there been no fake memories, nor a stupid nonsensical blood connection, this would have made for a far more powerful and less disturbing story. But at that point Joss clearly valued "Gotcha!" stories more than coherent storytelling.

 

[badsister]

Dawn represents Buffy's humanity so her saviour of Dawn in a season where she fears her role as a Slayer is making her a cold killer is important to reaffirming Buffy's connection with her human side and all that it encompasses: love, compassion, selflessness.

That's what I'm struggling with to this very day. I love The Gift and all. But she should have killed Dawn. That would be a human thing to do. She risked the whole planet by letting her live. is her life somehow worth more than other millions of people? no. i mean I know it sounds cruel, but that's the ultimate trolley problem and Buffy kinda failed

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Is that official? I always was under the assumption that BS8 was at least two years after S7. I could just be making wild assumptions, but I thought AS5 took one full year, AtF/Spike took up another year, then BS8 happened.

I’ll have to double check but with the sorda “reset” does AtF take any time at all?

 

[thetopher]

I’ll have to double check but with the sorda “reset” does AtF take any time at all?

That's how I remember it; Illyria did some 'time reversal' thing that got the whole city back to just after 'Not Fade Away', but everyone kept their memories of the (year?) time in said hell dimension.
So all the IDW stuff probably takes place in the 18 months before Buffy S8 starts up.

 

[badsister]

Illyria did some 'time reversal' thing

Wait. I thought W&H did it? Because Angel died so they reached in the timeline and did a reset

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Wait. I thought W&H did it? Because Angel died so they reached in the timeline and did a reset

You can order that timeline. Just pick up the phone and call Wolfram & Hart with the correct extension and you will get this message:

"You have reached ritual sacrifices. Press 1 for goat or say "goat".

Then you sacrifice a goat to get the timeline you want.

 

[badsister]

You can order that timeline. Just pick up the phone and call Wolfram & Hart with the correct extension and you will get this message:

"You have reached ritual sacrifices. Press 1 for goat or say "goat".

Then you sacrifice a goat to get the timeline you want.

You'd think they would have a little class
Like a human sacrifice

 

[thetopher]

Wait. I thought W&H did it? Because Angel died so they reached in the timeline and did a reset

It's been a while but didn't W&H make Angel human from the outset? Kinda risky thing to do if they didn't want him to die on them.
I truly could be remembering it all wrong- as to the cause- but I was sure it had something to do with Illyria in her big 'Old One' form.

But the upshot was 'no time had passed' except now Team Angel and all the residents of LA remembered having been to hell for a long time, which actually opens up tons of story possibilities, but I don't remember them being utilized.

 

[badsister]

It's been a while but didn't W&H make Angel human from the outset? Kinda risky thing to do if they didn't want him to die on them.

yeah you'd think they would be more reasonable

Spoiler

 

[badsister]

but I don't remember them being utilized.

Oh I remember there was like a movie about LA time in hell and Spike was a girl there ahaha
But yeah mostly everyone just denied it ever happened

 

[The Ferg]

I’ll have to double check but with the sorda “reset” does AtF take any time at all?

Yea, W&H resets LA to exactly what it was in the last shot of Not Fade Away. I was more talking about all of the IDW stuff as a whole. I should've been more specific about that.

It's been a while but didn't W&H make Angel human from the outset? Kinda risky thing to do if they didn't want him to die on them.
I truly could be remembering it all wrong- as to the cause- but I was sure it had something to do with Illyria in her big 'Old One' form.

Yea, it was risky, but they were really just trying to spit in Angel's face in as many ways as possible, and the best way they could do that (on top of everything else) is to give him what he's always wanted, at the exact time that he needed to be a vampire.

But the upshot was 'no time had passed' except now Team Angel and all the residents of LA remembered having been to hell for a long time, which actually opens up tons of story possibilities, but I don't remember them being utilized.

I think IDW's post-AtF stuff is generally good, but yes they mostly squandered the possibilities you speak of.

 

[badsister]

I'm sorry but no one in this world will ever convince me that Angel goes from the above to - screw the world and my kid I'm gonna go live in Eden. There is a disconnect there that is nothing short of stupid.

I'm so confused with timeline in this 'verse... yeah but then Angel did try to make a point about 'taking people to the new universe with them' but idk anymore!

 

[EarthLogic]

But the upshot was 'no time had passed' except now Team Angel and all the residents of LA remembered having been to hell for a long time, which actually opens up tons of story possibilities, but I don't remember them being utilized.

Yup. Tragedy of a missed opportunity really. I loved the ending of Lynch's arc: that final panel of Angel walking off into the night, but this time it's a lit street rather than a dark alley - a glimmer of hope. I really wanted to see a return to A.I. roots and mission statement but in a changed LA, to see him trying to help all those people with their experiences. But alas...

 

[badsister]

so if we trust these timelines than...Angel wtf has happened to you mate
they should have just made it a possession because the other way is confusing as hell