Latest Amy Acker & Joss pic

[thrasherpix]

I think it just has to be a real crucifix - there's so many out there and they can't all be blessed. Like I imagine Madonna walking around the in 80s would be protected from vampires! 😉

But...you could be on to something! It's never specifically stated in the series and maybe as a Watcher, they provide their Slayers with blessed crosses.

Here's another idea: some are more blessed than others (while others, perhaps mass produced crosses with no blessing or genuine faith of the bearer, have minimal to no "charge"). I do think in such a case that the Watchers would provide top of the line crucifixes.

Angel seems relatively resistant to crosses: he burns when touched but rarely recoils (and even toughed out the burning while kissing Buffy). However, I do recall when Xander took Jenny Calendar's cross and Angelus, upon having it shoved in his face, recoiled dramatically. Perhaps that was simply that Angelus was caught off guard, but it could be Jenny's cross was extra blessed (and/or infused with gypsy protection spells).

And so a new headcanon is born for me. 🙂


Speaking on a meta level, I do agree too many eps are written for what's convenient at the moment for plot. Part of the fun for me is to make headcanon that explains away the contradictions. I do think we fans put far more thought into the series than many to most of the writers did (at least on the "rules" of how things work and the implications of severe out of character moments that have implications the writers don't think about).

 

[Synch]

As for CC's S5 episode I doubt she had any real encounter with Joss during the production. Aside from the fact he never ran Angel day to day except writers room and post production overseeing (all of it from Buffy offices), so he was almost never at Angel set (except directing his anual episode and when SMG did her episodes, at least IWRY, Joss was there during kitchen scenes), CC herself said she never saw Joss again after Spin the Bottle (again = at least until 2005 panel with cast and crew). If he never ran Angel day to day for the first 2-3 seasons, he was even less during S4 because of Firefly running duties (along Tim) and 2 more shows to oversee (along his day to day showrunners). By Angel S5 he had only one show but he still oversaw instead of ran the whole thing because he had now Serenity script in the works (plus other projects).

Mi bet is she dealt with Bell and Fury. He wrote and directed that episode (and by then when a senior writer did it, it was like showrunning the entire thing except Bell and Joss notes and Joss final pass) and was number 2 in the chain of command after Bell.

CC: ' So when David Fury came to see me, I said I'd come back, but I wanted this amount of money- my feeling was if you are having me back, you're going to pay me what I deserve for the first time ever in the history of the show- and the second thing was I didn't want Cordy to die. So I signed the contract and then David says, "I have to tell you something. We're going to kill Cordy" and I'm like, "Of course you're doing this after I signed the contract". But he goes, "Hold on, just hear it out". He tells me how she dies , and I'm in tears now for a completely different reason, which is that it was really well told and beautiful. That changed everything.

I came to set, Joss sent me a really nice bucket of flowers and a beautiful note, which I have framed in my room. It basically said, "I think it'll be one of the sweetest stories you've ever told, thanks for coming and 'You're Welcome' " which was a play on words with the title of the episode. And it was a really beautiful episode.

Slayers & Vampires book, page 468.

Note. Fury explained the 'you are welcome' line/scene was Joss.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Here's another idea: some are more blessed than others (while others, perhaps mass produced crosses with no blessing or genuine faith of the bearer, have minimal to no "charge"). I do think in such a case that the Watchers would provide top of the line crucifixes.

True. Which if these crucifixes are blessed...this means a small amount of Priests are aware vampires/demons exist.

Angel seems relatively resistant to crosses: he burns when touched but rarely recoils (and even toughed out the burning while kissing Buffy). However, I do recall when Xander took Jenny Calendar's cross and Angelus, upon having it shoved in his face, recoiled dramatically. Perhaps that was simply that Angelus was caught off guard, but it could be Jenny's cross was extra blessed (and/or infused with gypsy protection spells).

And so a new headcanon is born for me. 🙂

And the plot thickens! I like this idea! 😁

As a Spillow shipper, you've just reminded me of a particular story, Spike gives Willow a Star of David to wear. He mentions any religious symbol will repel vampires, not just a crucifix. I found that interesting.

Speaking on a meta level, I do agree too many eps are written for what's convenient at the moment for plot. Part of the fun for me is to make headcanon that explains away the contradictions. I do think we fans put far more thought into the series than many to most of the writers did (at least on the "rules" of how things work and the implications of severe out of character moments that have implications the writers don't think about).

That tends to be the way - as fans we'll watch it a million times over and over-analyse the series. For them (and the actors) it's a moment in time.

 

[Synch]

Joss in London a few days ago:

 

[Btvs fan]

Joss in London a few days ago:

He should travel to Chester or York

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

The any holy symbol doesn’t entirely make sense either, as a one to one comparison with a silver neck cross doesn’t really exist. Like, a Star and Crescent isn’t really holy , same goes for a Star of David. But for simple storytelling purposes, it’s fine. But I do look forward to Vampire being warded off by a Buddhist Manji.

I assume that Priests know about vampires. We know that the church in I've got you under my skin has a Nun who can see past Angel, and an exorcist who was going after the Demon/boy with no soul. We know Buffy went to a priest to get Evian blessed in the movie. Real life Pastoral Care manuals usually contain a chapter on what is called “Spiritual Warfare.” I'm sure the Buffyverse versions of those texts also contain a few more hand written annotations on the subject, and a telephone number for someone who has a few British friends, just in case something weird happens.

 

[hoponlilmama]

The any holy symbol doesn’t entirely make sense either, as a one to one comparison with a silver neck cross doesn’t really exist. Like, a Star and Crescent isn’t really holy , same goes for a Star of David. But for simple storytelling purposes, it’s fine. But I do look forward to Vampire being warded off by a Buddhist Manji.

That's why I mentioned that came from fanfic.
Ha, I just remembered the scene from the film The Mummy. Where Beni is cornered by Imhotep and he starts holding up every religious symbol he has on him to try and ward Imhotep off. 😂

I assume that Priests know about vampires. We know that the church in I've got you under my skin has a Nun who can see past Angel, and an exorcist who was going after the Demon/boy with no soul. We know Buffy went to a priest to get Evian blessed in the movie. Real life Pastoral Care manuals usually contain a chapter on what is called “Spiritual Warfare.” I'm sure the Buffyverse versions of those texts also contain a few more hand written annotations on the subject, and a telephone number for someone who has a few British friends, just in case something weird happens.

True!

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

The any holy symbol doesn’t entirely make sense either, as a one to one comparison with a silver neck cross doesn’t really exist. Like, a Star and Crescent isn’t really holy , same goes for a Star of David. But for simple storytelling purposes, it’s fine. But I do look forward to Vampire being warded off by a Buddhist Manji.

I assume that Priests know about vampires. We know that the church in I've got you under my skin has a Nun who can see past Angel, and an exorcist who was going after the Demon/boy with no soul. We know Buffy went to a priest to get Evian blessed in the movie. Real life Pastoral Care manuals usually contain a chapter on what is called “Spiritual Warfare.” I'm sure the Buffyverse versions of those texts also contain a few more hand written annotations on the subject, and a telephone number for someone who has a few British friends, just in case something weird happens.

Why is it that only Christian symbols are holy? Who said so? There are many religious artefacts considered sacred or blessed by the adherants. If there was nothing holy no one would visit shrines or temples. I am talking about what believers hold as sacred. It is only vampire lore in europe that attached christian symbology.

 

[NotASlayer]

Why is it that only Christian symbols are holy? Who said so? There are many religious artefacts considered sacred or blessed by the adherants. If there was nothing holy no one would visit shrines or temples. I am talking about what believers hold as sacred. It is only vampire lore in europe that attached christian symbology.

Might it depend on the vampire type? The ones depicted in media are commonly the European blend, who would have likely been raised in Christianity in many instances, and therefore such would have much more of a personal connection to them.

Now, whether Christian symbols would work on something like a preta/gaki for instance is another thing. The cross might not do anything, but Buddhist symbols for instance might.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Holy Symbols: That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying not everything we would think of as a religious symbol is though of as representing the power and protection of the Divine. But, unless you are willing to do the extra legwork as a story teller, you might as well keep it close to that one scene with Benny in the Mummy.

For example, Star of David is just a symbol of the Jewish people. It's not sacred. Or, The Crescent and Star, it's the insignia of the Ottoman Empire. Vampires fearing those objects would be akin to fearing the Union Jack.

 

[NotASlayer]

Quite a few symbols first represented one thing, then became associated with a religion. Or other things; in Western culture what might be termed as the sun cross in its originating cultures now has a... somewhat different reputation. It is probably not so much that they are "holy" symbols as religious icons; holy itself is a Christian idea more than anything. Sacred might be a better term.

 

[burrunjor]

Okay several things I want to talk about in this thread.

About Joss. I agree that he shouldn't be completely cancelled. He's very talented and clearly is not a totally terrible person. Thankfully I think genuinely awful people are rare. He was never accused of being a predator, or for all his threats, of actively ruining someone's career. Charisma was not contrary to popular belief blacklisted like say Gina Carano who really hasn't been in anything in 4 years. She has worked consistently. No leading roles, but the same is true for most of the cast of Buffy, including James Marsters. To me people do down Charisma by making out she is a failed actress after Buffy.

There are also many stories about his generosity to actors, his letting them get away with things that other producers wouldn't, and his relationship with his cast was a lot more complex than people make out. Even he and Charisma were once on great terms. He famously did a favour for her on the set of Graduation Day by letting Cordelia stake a vampire which she always wanted. (Despite how ridiculous it looked. Prior to this Cordelia could only fight by slapping LOL in Helpless, but now she is bold and strong enough to stab a stake through a vampires coat, skin, muscle and bone!)

Joss's behavior honestly isn't worse than a lot of other producers like JNT on Doctor Who, Irwin Allen on Lost in Space and Gene Roddenberry on Star Trek. Obviously I'm not saying this absolves him, but just as those producers work can still be appreciated without a disclaimer "I know he was an arse" then the same should be true of Joss. Sadly I feel if I wanted to praise Joss' skill at say horror some people would always say "don't praise him. He probably didn't even write that anyway."

Also I DO think Joss was a genuine feminist writer. He wrote excellent female characters that broke down a lot of negative stereotypes like valley girls always being stupid, nerdy girls always being weak, prostitutes always having a negative portrayal like in Firefly etc.

Indeed modern writers could learn a thing or two from him. He wrote them as fully rounded individuals, not trophies for his ego, he didn't use them to shit on men, but he was able to write about issues women face from men like Pete abusing his girlfriend, but unlike modern clumsy writers he A/ still made it an engaging horror story and B/ didn't tar all men as that so it actually tackled the issue without getting side tracked into a stupid boys vs girls debate.

Cheating doesn't make him a misogynist. People of both genders cheat. My all time favourite Amy Winehouse cheated, does that mean she hated men? Meanwhile whilst he WAS an arsehole to some actresses, he was just as big an asshole to some men like James Marsters. He was an equal opportunity prick LOL.

Having said ALL of that however, let's not overdo the Joss is innocent idea. I feel people always go too far one way or the other, from saying "he is my master" to trying to write him out of his own creations etc. We need a balanced view if we're looking at him as a person.

Joss absolutely is NOT as innocent as say Gina Carano who really did nothing wrong and was treated appallingly. He was emotionally abusive to some of his actors, and for a progressive guy didn't take into account things like Charisma Carpenters anxiety and he created obnoxious cliques on set where actors were rewarded for hanging out with him, like Amy Acker getting the wonderful part of Illyria because of how she performed at his Shakespeare readings. (Apparently Illyria was based on one of those performances.)

Plus I know some people here have issues with Charisma who can be a bit holier than thou on social media, but come on. By any measure how he treated her was bad. Mocking her anxiety, threatening to fire her and worst of all having one of his lackeys fire her by phone. No matter what way you spin that, it's a cowardly way to treat someone, never mind someone who worked with him for 7 years at that point and was a huge part of both of his shows success.

Her having a tattoo does not excuse that and quite frankly that's a minor problem anyway. FFS Jon Pertwee had a tattoo on his arm from his old days in the Navy that unlike Charisma's was visible in some episodes, yet nobody cared about that. It's a minor problem and not one you'd use to justify treating an actress that badly.

Joss also does have a nasty streak a mile long as seen in the way he made writers cry because he thought their stories were shit on Firefly, and even just his conduct on twitter, calling Nicol Kidman an ugly puppet, and saying he hopes someone gets well I don't want to repeat it, but let's just say it involves a Rhino and its horn being put to improper use.

Also whilst I don't think he hates women, his smugness in interviews about how progressive he was and how he champions women was hypocritical when he showed what should have been the most important woman in his life 0 respect.

I think a lot of Joss's issues stem from his abusive childhood. His parents sound absolutely awful. Like Rimmer's parents from Red Dwarf. They were largely failed creatives who wanted to live vicariously through their children and did things like pit them against each other for affection, forced them to be entertaining and refused to speak to them if they bombed (imagine getting that treatment when you're a child? Your own parents blanking you for being boring.) They also forced him to take part in Shakespeare readings, and did nothing to stop him getting violently bullied by his siblings and others in the neighborhood.

Some would say without them he wouldn't have been the good writer he was, but I think that is bollocks. Joss's great writing came from his love of things like X-Men, Tomb of Dracula, old horror movies etc, all of which his parents didn't want him looking at. They honestly just gave him a ****ed up perspective.

I'm not saying parents being dicks excuses Joss's behavior. Still it definitely explains it. Him humiliating a writer for not being entertaining is exactly how he was treated by them if he wasn't entertaining, him forcing his actors to take part in his Shakespeare readings is what happened to him, and him pitting his cast against each other mirrors how he and his siblings were treated.

He was clearly raised to think that behavior was normal and to be honest I genuinely believe him when he says he was shocked some of his cast hated him as a result. The fact that he no longer idolizes his awful mother shows some progress in realizing how messed up his childhood was, but sadly if that interview is anything to go by he can't quite face that he became the bully as a result.

Still if he is no longer going to do that kind of shit, then I have 0 issue with him coming back as long as what he does is good of course. It has been 5 years now since he was cancelled. I think that's long enough and the lesson to be learned is never build people up to being these messiah like figures. It's not good for us, them or the people around them.

 

[Btvs fan]

Okay several things I want to talk about in this thread.

About Joss. I agree that he shouldn't be completely cancelled. He's very talented and clearly is not a totally terrible person. Thankfully I think genuinely awful people are rare. He was never accused of being a predator, or for all his threats, of actively ruining someone's career. Charisma was not contrary to popular belief blacklisted like say Gina Carano who really hasn't been in anything in 4 years. She has worked consistently. No leading roles, but the same is true for most of the cast of Buffy, including James Marsters. To me people do down Charisma by making out she is a failed actress after Buffy.

There are also many stories about his generosity to actors, his letting them get away with things that other producers wouldn't, and his relationship with his cast was a lot more complex than people make out. Even he and Charisma were once on great terms. He famously did a favour for her on the set of Graduation Day by letting Cordelia stake a vampire which she always wanted. (Despite how ridiculous it looked. Prior to this Cordelia could only fight by slapping LOL in Helpless, but now she is bold and strong enough to stab a stake through a vampires coat, skin, muscle and bone!)

Joss's behavior honestly isn't worse than a lot of other producers like JNT on Doctor Who, Irwin Allen on Lost in Space and Gene Roddenberry on Star Trek. Obviously I'm not saying this absolves him, but just as those producers work can still be appreciated without a disclaimer "I know he was an arse" then the same should be true of Joss. Sadly I feel if I wanted to praise Joss' skill at say horror some people would always say "don't praise him. He probably didn't even write that anyway."

Also I DO think Joss was a genuine feminist writer. He wrote excellent female characters that broke down a lot of negative stereotypes like valley girls always being stupid, nerdy girls always being weak, prostitutes always having a negative portrayal like in Firefly etc.

Indeed modern writers could learn a thing or two from him. He wrote them as fully rounded individuals, not trophies for his ego, he didn't use them to shit on men, but he was able to write about issues women face from men like Pete abusing his girlfriend, but unlike modern clumsy writers he A/ still made it an engaging horror story and B/ didn't tar all men as that so it actually tackled the issue without getting side tracked into a stupid boys vs girls debate.

Cheating doesn't make him a misogynist. People of both genders cheat. My all time favourite Amy Winehouse cheated, does that mean she hated men? Meanwhile whilst he WAS an arsehole to some actresses, he was just as big an asshole to some men like James Marsters. He was an equal opportunity prick LOL.

Having said ALL of that however, let's not overdo the Joss is innocent idea. I feel people always go too far one way or the other, from saying "he is my master" to trying to write him out of his own creations etc. We need a balanced view if we're looking at him as a person.

Joss absolutely is NOT as innocent as say Gina Carano who really did nothing wrong and was treated appallingly. He was emotionally abusive to some of his actors, and for a progressive guy didn't take into account things like Charisma Carpenters anxiety and he created obnoxious cliques on set where actors were rewarded for hanging out with him, like Amy Acker getting the wonderful part of Illyria because of how she performed at his Shakespeare readings. (Apparently Illyria was based on one of those performances.)

Plus I know some people here have issues with Charisma who can be a bit holier than thou on social media, but come on. By any measure how he treated her was bad. Mocking her anxiety, threatening to fire her and worst of all having one of his lackeys fire her by phone. No matter what way you spin that, it's a cowardly way to treat someone, never mind someone who worked with him for 7 years at that point and was a huge part of both of his shows success.

Her having a tattoo does not excuse that and quite frankly that's a minor problem anyway. FFS Jon Pertwee had a tattoo on his arm from his old days in the Navy that unlike Charisma's was visible in some episodes, yet nobody cared about that. It's a minor problem and not one you'd use to justify treating an actress that badly.

Joss also does have a nasty streak a mile long as seen in the way he made writers cry because he thought their stories were shit on Firefly, and even just his conduct on twitter, calling Nicol Kidman an ugly puppet, and saying he hopes someone gets well I don't want to repeat it, but let's just say it involves a Rhino and its horn being put to improper use.

Also whilst I don't think he hates women, his smugness in interviews about how progressive he was and how he champions women was hypocritical when he showed what should have been the most important woman in his life 0 respect.

I think a lot of Joss's issues stem from his abusive childhood. His parents sound absolutely awful. Like Rimmer's parents from Red Dwarf. They were largely failed creatives who wanted to live vicariously through their children and did things like pit them against each other for affection, forced them to be entertaining and refused to speak to them if they bombed (imagine getting that treatment when you're a child? Your own parents blanking you for being boring.) They also forced him to take part in Shakespeare readings, and did nothing to stop him getting violently bullied by his siblings and others in the neighborhood.

Some would say without them he wouldn't have been the good writer he was, but I think that is bollocks. Joss's great writing came from his love of things like X-Men, Tomb of Dracula, old horror movies etc, all of which his parents didn't want him looking at. They honestly just gave him a ****ed up perspective.

I'm not saying parents being dicks excuses Joss's behavior. Still it definitely explains it. Him humiliating a writer for not being entertaining is exactly how he was treated by them if he wasn't entertaining, him forcing his actors to take part in his Shakespeare readings is what happened to him, and him pitting his cast against each other mirrors how he and his siblings were treated.

He was clearly raised to think that behavior was normal and to be honest I genuinely believe him when he says he was shocked some of his cast hated him as a result. The fact that he no longer idolizes his awful mother shows some progress in realizing how messed up his childhood was, but sadly if that interview is anything to go by he can't quite face that he became the bully as a result.

Still if he is no longer going to do that kind of shit, then I have 0 issue with him coming back as long as what he does is good of course. It has been 5 years now since he was cancelled. I think that's long enough and the lesson to be learned is never build people up to being these messiah like figures. It's not good for us, them or the people around them.

Have you read the Vulture Interview with him ? He does come across as a bit (hell a lot) of a narcissist comparing himself to Richard the 3rd. He also said he identified most with Topher from Dollhouse as who he was most like.

To be honest the worst allegation was not Charismas, which was bad enough or even SMGs stoney silence or what Emma Caulfield has since said but Michelle Tractenbergs revelation of the onset rule Don't leave her alone with Joss. Now since she's died its hard to say what she meant (he's denied it) though the implication is pretty dark.

I think moving foward just have him working on scripts so he doesn't have to be on set and his toxic behaviour is kept to a minimum

 

[burrunjor]

Have you read the Vulture Interview with him ? He does come across as a bit (hell a lot) of a narcissist comparing himself to Richard the 3rd. He also said he identified most with Topher from Dollhouse as who he was most like.

To be honest the worst allegation was not Charismas, which was bad enough or even SMGs stoney silence or what Emma Caulfield has since said but Michelle Tractenbergs revelation of the onset rule Don't leave her alone with Joss. Now since she's died its hard to say what she meant (he's denied it) though the implication is pretty dark.

I think moving foward just have him working on scripts so he doesn't have to be on set and his toxic behaviour is kept to a minimum

I believe that was revealed to be because he shouted at her and was a dick in other ways NOT anything sexual. I did read the interview and it was hilarious how tone deaf it was, but again like I said I think he is the product of a severely abusive home and hopefully has changed now that he is aware of that rather than praising his mother.

Also thanks for the compliments guys, means a lot. I always try and get the full picture.

 

[Synch]

The Firefly cry story is a very good example that 99% that 'we know' is, at least, nothing solid.

People assumed it was a female Firefly writer cause Jose Molina was the one who explained the story. But there was only 2 fermale Firefly writers: Espenson, a very close Joss friend (still today) and the one who worked for him in every series he created (except Shield but thats a very different project cause he left mostly after the pilot). And the other one was Cheryl Chain and she apparently was in good terms with him.

However people maybe don't know Molina worked for Joss during Buffy Seasons 2 to 4 as Marti Noxon's assistant. Also Firefly writers room was just next to Buffy's (Angel was downstairs) at Buffy sets, also with the smoking patio in which all 3 teams had their time (they made fun asking if they had enough Joss time this day),. So, during Firefly's time, Molina spent time with all 3 teams. So it could be Tracey Forbes (Beer Bad and the other not so good Buffy S4 episode), gone after S4 or Rebecca Rand (Buffy S5-6-7). My bet is Rebecca but who knows.

As for Molina: the same guy who explained the writers played at one soccer writers league and Joss paid for the whole thing. I guess that story isn't on twitter.

 

[Btvs fan]

The Firefly cry story is a very good example that 99% that 'we know' is, at least, nothing solid.

People assumed it was a female Firefly writer cause Jose Molina was the one who explained the story. But there was only 2 fermale Firefly writers: Espenson, a very close Joss friend (still today) and the one who worked for him in every series he created (except Shield but thats a very different project cause he left mostly after the pilot). And the other one was Cheryl Chain and she apparently was in good terms with him.

However people maybe don't know Molina worked for Joss during Buffy Seasons 2 to 4 as Marti Noxon's assistant. Also Firefly writers room was just next to Buffy's (Angel was downstairs) at Buffy sets, also with the smoking patio in which all 3 teams had their time (they made fun asking if they had enough Joss time this day),. So, during Firefly's time, Molina spent time with all 3 teams. So it could be Tracey Forbes (Beer Bad and the other not so good Buffy S4 episode), gone after S4 or Rebecca Rand (Buffy S5-6-7). My bet is Rebecca but who knows.

As for Molina: the same guy who explained the writers played at one soccer writers league and Joss paid for the whole thing. I guess that story isn't on twitter.

And the Sabrina writer who was pregnant who said both Joss and David Greenwalt made fun of her?

The whole Firefly thing was done in front of a group of people so I would be very easy to disprove if it wasn't true. All it would take for 1 of those alleged to be there to say Nope it didn't happen.

Now just for the record I think Joss should be uncancelled and thought this Buffy reboot was never going to work without him (its his character) and Buffy was always a writers show rather than a Director or actress show, hell Im not even sure it would've worked even with Joss, these reboots always fail!, but leaving all that aside I think its crazy to pretend he wasn't a dick on set or is a bit of a narcissist. That Vulture Interview showed that. The amount of cast members that came foward. I mean its not just 1 or 2
Plus 15 hrs nights is an insane work load no matter what job your in.

 

[burrunjor]

And the Sabrina writer who was pregnant who said both Joss and David Greenwalt made fun of her?

The whole Firefly thing was done in front of a group of people so I would be very easy to disprove if it wasn't true. All it would take for 1 of those alleged to be there to say Nope it didn't happen.

Now just for the record I think Joss should be uncancelled and thought this Buffy reboot was never going to work without him (its his character) and Buffy was always a writers show rather than a Director or actress show, hell Im not even sure it would've worked even with Joss, these reboots always fail!, but leaving all that aside I think its crazy to pretend he wasn't a dick on set or is a bit of a narcissist. That Vulture Interview showed that. The amount of cast members that came foward. I mean its not just 1 or 2
Plus 15 hrs nights is an insane work load no matter what job your in.

Yeah again it's possible some of the stories are not true, but very unlikely all of them are, and given they span pretty much his entire career from Buffy to Firefly to DC yeah it all paints the same picture.

He clearly has his issues or else he wouldn't have gone to therapy, but again as you say he didn't kill anyone, so if he has changed he should be given another chance. Why waste his talent?

I've said this before but a very interesting parallel can be drawn between Joss Whedon and John Nathan Turned, the producer of Doctor Who in the 80s.

For those of you who don't know, JNT initially started as a hero among fandom during his stint on DW in the early-mid 80s. He helped the show finally become huge in America, revived its status as a cool, edgy, spooky show in Britain after it had become a bit of a light hearted comedy show, and at first by all accounts he was easy to work with and beloved by his cast. He also was more generous to fans in terms of granting them interviews, going to conventions, and he was also a massive who fan as a boy so he felt like one of us.

However sadly all of this led to him losing his head and becoming a tyrant on set. He would do pretty much ALL of the same shitty things Joss did.

He played favourites with the cast and could be a bully to those he disliked. Sophie Aldred who played Ace he took a disliking too when she asked him to stop smoking and said she wanted to do another publicity shot as she thought she looked awful. He responded to the former by lighting up a cigarette and blowing it in her face and the latter by telling her "who the **** do you think you are? Elizabeth Taylor". He'd also do things like say goodbye to everybody but Sophie on set and joke about replacing the companion all of which upset Sophie. She said she'd come home in tears worrying about her job.

Fortunately he and Sophie did make it up by the end of her first season and became lifelong friends after unlike Charisma, but it does show you how producers can be cliquey and abuse their power.

JNT also shagged about with the fans. Literally the only difference is he was gay so it was male fans LOL, but same dynamic. Fanboys, people who worked on the show, etc he had his way with 100s of them, just like Joss did with the fan girls. There is even the same story about them shagging a fan whilst talking to someone else! In Joss's case it was when he was talking to a writer and she left, whilst JNT he was on the phone to a reporter whilst shagging someone under the desk. The reporter later said "John sounded out of breath."

Both also went made and tried to blacklist people from the show over petty grievances.

Both also became caricatures of their former selves as the more self indulgent they became, the fewer people were willing to say no to them because of what tyrants they were.

Both even went through a similar dip with Trial of a Time Lord and Angel season 4 being season long arcs that don't go anywhere, and in both cases one of the leads was made the fall guy and fired (Charisma and Colin Baker, though JNT was less to blame with Colin, the way he handled it was pretty bad, as he phoned Colin and said "I have some good news and bad news. The good news is that DW will continue for another season and the bad news is you won't be the Doctor". LOL again to be fair he and Colin remained friends. I don't think JNT was being malicious, more just socially inept but still.

However both got a bit of a knock after their empire crumbled, (in Joss's case Angel being axed in season 4, Firefly being cancelled, in JNT's the 1985 hiatus.) So both stopped being as self indulgent and the next eras, the McCoy era and Angel season 5 were among the best either series ever produced and ended it on a high.

Sadly however in both cases all the enemies they made along the way came out with venomous stories about his behavior and the fans turned on them and made them both pariahs and both were basically blacklisted and never worked again, with JNT drinking himself to death.

Obviously Joss's fall was bigger as he was a lot bigger, but it is worth mentioning that in both cases whilst JNT and Joss clearly had emotional issues and can't be absolved, the fans did create the toxic atmosphere that brought out the worst side in them, which again is why we should avoid that happening again.

 

[Btvs fan]

Yeah again it's possible some of the stories are not true, but very unlikely all of them are, and given they span pretty much his entire career from Buffy to Firefly to DC yeah it all paints the same picture.

He clearly has his issues or else he wouldn't have gone to therapy, but again as you say he didn't kill anyone, so if he has changed he should be given another chance. Why waste his talent?

I've said this before but a very interesting parallel can be drawn between Joss Whedon and John Nathan Turned, the producer of Doctor Who in the 80s.

For those of you who don't know, JNT initially started as a hero among fandom during his stint on DW in the early-mid 80s. He helped the show finally become huge in America, revived its status as a cool, edgy, spooky show in Britain after it had become a bit of a light hearted comedy show, and at first by all accounts he was easy to work with and beloved by his cast. He also was more generous to fans in terms of granting them interviews, going to conventions, and he was also a massive who fan as a boy so he felt like one of us.

However sadly all of this led to him losing his head and becoming a tyrant on set. He would do pretty much ALL of the same shitty things Joss did.

He played favourites with the cast and could be a bully to those he disliked. Sophie Aldred who played Ace he took a disliking too when she asked him to stop smoking and said she wanted to do another publicity shot as she thought she looked awful. He responded to the former by lighting up a cigarette and blowing it in her face and the latter by telling her "who the **** do you think you are? Elizabeth Taylor". He'd also do things like say goodbye to everybody but Sophie on set and joke about replacing the companion all of which upset Sophie. She said she'd come home in tears worrying about her job.

Fortunately he and Sophie did make it up by the end of her first season and became lifelong friends after unlike Charisma, but it does show you how producers can be cliquey and abuse their power.

JNT also shagged about with the fans. Literally the only difference is he was gay so it was male fans LOL, but same dynamic. Fanboys, people who worked on the show, etc he had his way with 100s of them, just like Joss did with the fan girls. There is even the same story about them shagging a fan whilst talking to someone else! In Joss's case it was when he was talking to a writer and she left, whilst JNT he was on the phone to a reporter whilst shagging someone under the desk. The reporter later said "John sounded out of breath."

Both also went made and tried to blacklist people from the show over petty grievances.

Both also became caricatures of their former selves as the more self indulgent they became, the fewer people were willing to say no to them because of what tyrants they were.

Both even went through a similar dip with Trial of a Time Lord and Angel season 4 being season long arcs that don't go anywhere, and in both cases one of the leads was made the fall guy and fired (Charisma and Colin Baker, though JNT was less to blame with Colin, the way he handled it was pretty bad, as he phoned Colin and said "I have some good news and bad news. The good news is that DW will continue for another season and the bad news is you won't be the Doctor". LOL again to be fair he and Colin remained friends. I don't think JNT was being malicious, more just socially inept but still.

However both got a bit of a knock after their empire crumbled, (in Joss's case Angel being axed in season 4, Firefly being cancelled, in JNT's the 1985 hiatus.) So both stopped being as self indulgent and the next eras, the McCoy era and Angel season 5 were among the best either series ever produced and ended it on a high.

Sadly however in both cases all the enemies they made along the way came out with venomous stories about his behavior and the fans turned on them and made them both pariahs and both were basically blacklisted and never worked again, with JNT drinking himself to death.

Obviously Joss's fall was bigger as he was a lot bigger, but it is worth mentioning that in both cases whilst JNT and Joss clearly had emotional issues and can't be absolved, the fans did create the toxic atmosphere that brought out the worst side in them, which again is why we should avoid that happening again.

In Joss case one story that sticks out is the make up artist (I forget her name) she talked about how they were going to dress Sarah as the BuffyBot in S5. Sarah wanted her to be prim amd demure with modest clothing. Joss wanted her to be sexy and in leather. She said they had a big argument over it and Joss was really angry but he couldn't take it out on Sarah so he took it out on her grabbing her arm and hurting her.
In the end the Buffy Bot had a compromise where she had the long modest skirt that Sarah wanted but a leather jacket that Joss wanted.
She said she was eventually fired due to her and Sarah being close which Joss resented.

To me thats just dickish behaviour and unescessary. Id hope Older wiser Joss wouldn't behave like that

 

[Synch]

I'm not saying what Molina said wasn't true but that maybe it wasn't a Firefly writer. He never said it was a female Firefly writer but a female writer. People just assumed it was a female Firefly writer cause maybe only know Molina as a Firefly writer. But he worked for Buffy too and shared time with all 3 series as all 3 writers room were at the same building (next to Joss office, post production rooms and next to Sunnydale St set). So that female writer could be anyone from all 3 shows but my bet is that happened during Molina's time at Buffy or even during Firefly time (because writers spent time in other shows too, listening or because they needed Joss time when he was so busy and focused that day in one of the shows). Forbes and Kirshner are the ones I guess Joss gave that note session. Also both writers were new (main reason Joss ran 2 shows and then 3 was writers learned to run their own stuff the way Joss wanted so they needed less notes/less Joss time). Rebecca also spoke about Joss in one interview in a way I think it was her the one about Molina's story.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Why are some in here excusing Joss' bad behavior because because he grew up in an abusive home? So do alot of people, and still manage to be decent adults.

Mature adults get therapy and take accountability for their behavior.