No Means No – A Look At Victim Blaming In the Buffyverse Fandom

Exactly. Although I blame soulless Spike entirely for the rape-attempt, I don't hold Spike-with-soul culpable exactly. I do think that his emotions linked to that event could've been explored better the following season- given that the writers still wanted to do the whole Spuffy romance angle.

It's like; there's a guy who turns nasty when he has a few too many drinks, he badly beats the girl that he's in a relationship with and is so horrified by that he checks himself into rehab.
Then a few months later he returns wanting to renew the relationship 'I still love you, I did this for you' without really apologizing. Not only that but sometimes he says things like 'hey, you might'a had it coming because you chose to be around me' or something. I mean, to me that sounds like a real jerk-move and not something I would call 'self-less love'.

I don't this Spike-with-a-soul is a rapist, I just think he's a massive a-hole.




Then yay! We are in thunderous agreement. 🙂

I agree I think that Spike is a total jerk most of the time, and I'm disappointed in Buffy because she knew what he was when she started sleeping with him but hey I guess that's what happens when you're taken out of heaven.
 
A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog protests, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it sting him, they would both drown. So, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion stings the frog, sealing both of their fates. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so.

The frog is as much to blame for what befell him as the scorpion. The frog forgot to whom he was entrusting his life.
 
The Ferg
The Ferg
So perfect.
thetopher
thetopher
Scorpions are just crappy, generally.
N
NoShip
That sounds really close to victim blaming.
A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog protests, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it sting him, they would both drown. So, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion stings the frog, sealing both of their fates. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so.

The frog is as much to blame for what befell him as the scorpion. The frog forgot to whom he was entrusting his life.

That seems quite profound and philosophical. Kind of like "If you're going to play with fire, don't complain when your fingers get burned.


I think the writers handled the fallout of the AR badly (aka almost not at all), in fact the whole AR was handled badly. It seems like the writers wanted Spike to do something so bad that he'd be compelled to get his soul yet they forgot that such an action has consequences, then they forgot that attempted rape actually makes a character unlikeable and they want the audience to feel sorry for Spike, so they thought the best way to deal with it was to brush it under the carpet.

The problem with Spike's writing is that he does have a conscience pre-soul, therefore "not having a conscience and the ability too tell the difference between right and wrong" doesn't work as an excuse. Spike is capable of feeling guilt pre-soul. We see this during his relationship with Drusilla when he apologises for snapping at her and the whole act of going to get his soul is because he feels guilty about what he did to Buffy.

I also find it off-putting that someone feels they have to change a part of themselves in order to be accepted by the other person. The idea that Buffy only truly accepts Spike once he has a soul actually makes Buffy look judgemental. She broke up with him, not for his benefit but for hers. Whilst that doesn't mean Buffy was wrong for getting out of a relationship she was unhappy in, at the same time it was all about her, if that makes sense? She didn't care about Spike's feelings throughout season 6, she treated him as a toy she could just pick up and throw away as she pleases.

I realise that sounds anti-Buffy and it's not meant to be. I just think Spuffy in season 6 and 7 was one big mess and its complexities (eg six of one, half a dozen of the other) weren't handle with the finesse and delicateness that such a relationship would require. I think Buffy's actions in season 6 in regards to Spuffy get whitewashed because the AR is so terrible, it overshadows them rather than be treated as separate issues.
 
That seems quite profound and philosophical. Kind of like "If you're going to play with fire, don't complain when your fingers get burned.


I think the writers handled the fallout of the AR badly (aka almost not at all), in fact the whole AR was handled badly. It seems like the writers wanted Spike to do something so bad that he'd be compelled to get his soul yet they forgot that such an action has consequences, then they forgot that attempted rape actually makes a character unlikeable and they want the audience to feel sorry for Spike, so they thought the best way to deal with it was to brush it under the carpet.

The problem with Spike's writing is that he does have a conscience pre-soul, therefore "not having a conscience and the ability too tell the difference between right and wrong" doesn't work as an excuse. Spike is capable of feeling guilt pre-soul. We see this during his relationship with Drusilla when he apologises for snapping at her and the whole act of going to get his soul is because he feels guilty about what he did to Buffy.

I also find it off-putting that someone feels they have to change a part of themselves in order to be accepted by the other person. The idea that Buffy only truly accepts Spike once he has a soul actually makes Buffy look judgemental. She broke up with him, not for his benefit but for hers. Whilst that doesn't mean Buffy was wrong for getting out of a relationship she was unhappy in, at the same time it was all about her, if that makes sense? She didn't care about Spike's feelings throughout season 6, she treated him as a toy she could just pick up and throw away as she pleases.

I realise that sounds anti-Buffy and it's not meant to be. I just think Spuffy in season 6 and 7 was one big mess and its complexities (eg six of one, half a dozen of the other) weren't handle with the finesse and delicateness that such a relationship would require. I think Buffy's actions in season 6 in regards to Spuffy get whitewashed because the AR is so terrible, it overshadows them rather than be treated as separate issues.

Exactly! It's like how did the writers expect the fans to hate Spike for the attempted rape if even Buffy herself brushes it off! It wasn't taken seriously enough but then again nothing Spike does wrong is ever taken seriously enough. Buffy even gets back together with him in season 7 and he's portrayed like a saint then too.
 
Exactly! It's like how did the writers expect the fans to hate Spike for the attempted rape if even Buffy herself brushes it off! It wasn't taken seriously enough but then again nothing Spike does wrong is ever taken seriously enough. Buffy even gets back together with him in season 7 and he's portrayed like a saint then too.

I think Spike as a character in his own right is great, he excels at being the snarky villain/reluctant ally. However, the show tried to force him into a role that didn't suit him: the lead romantic interest. From season 5 onwards, Spike stopped being his own independent person and became all about Buffy. In a way it was inevitable that Buffy would reciprocate Spike's feelings for her because that's the way those types of storylines go, but the way it got from Point A to Point B is terrible because of how unrealistic it was. After the AR, Spuffy should've been dead in the water, not played as a romance.
 
N
NoShip
THIS
I think Spike as a character in his own right is great, he excels at being the snarky villain/reluctant ally. However, the show tried to force him into a role that didn't suit him: the lead romantic interest. From season 5 onwards, Spike stopped being his own independent person and became all about Buffy. In a way it was inevitable that Buffy would reciprocate Spike's feelings for her because that's the way those types of storylines go, but the way it got from Point A to Point B is terrible because of how unrealistic it was. After the AR, Spuffy should've been dead in the water, not played as a romance.

I agree because Spike was incredibly fun and imo more interesting in season 2. I saw him and Dru as a more extreme and romantic version of Faith/the mayor (they were evil but they still loved each other), that was a way better story than the #2 Slayer and a vampire romance 🙁 I guess Spike is an example of why writers shouldn't appease fans because Spike only became a main because of his popularity. However why did that have to lead to Spuffy? Could they not have just had Spike and Drusilla both be mains and allies to Buffy or something 😀
 
I agree because Spike was incredibly fun and imo more interesting in season 2. I saw him and Dru as a more extreme and romantic version of Faith/the mayor (they were evil but they still loved each other), that was a way better story than the #2 Slayer and a vampire romance 🙁 I guess Spike is an example of why writers shouldn't appease fans because Spike only became a main because of his popularity. However why did that have to lead to Spuffy? Could they not have just had Spike and Drusilla both be mains and allies to Buffy or something 😀

Agreed. As you can probably tell, I'm a big Sprusilla fan 😀 and I would've loved the two of them to stay together. They could've appeared on Angel during the Darla arc so that we would've had a present-day Whirlwind reunion. Drusilla would also have seen Dawn for what she was as Dru is crazy. Funny thing is though, Dru is either mentioned by Spike or appears in some form in a scene with Spike in every season. She is never far from Spike's mind.
 
Agreed. As you can probably tell, I'm a big Sprusilla fan 😀 and I would've loved the two of them to stay together. They could've appeared on Angel during the Darla arc so that we would've had a present-day Whirlwind reunion. Drusilla would also have seen Dawn for what she was as Dru is crazy. Funny thing is though, Dru is either mentioned by Spike or appears in some form in a scene with Spike in every season. She is never far from Spike's mind.

I do like to think that Spike never forgot Dru lol 😳 they'll be together one day🙁
 
I do like to think that Spike never forgot Dru lol 😳 they'll be together one day🙁

What they should do is split Spike into his evil half and good half. The evil half (which would practically be his season 2 self) would go off and be with Dru whilst the good half would stay with Buffy. Everybody wins!
 
What they should do is split Spike into his evil half and good half. The evil half (which would practically be his season 2 self) would go off and be with Dru whilst the good half would stay with Buffy. Everybody wins!
I'd love it if they did that 😳 of course Buffy might get bored though lol
 
In "Beauty and the Beasts 3x04", the show already dealt with a couple where the male had the equivalent of "'roid rage" with Pete killing Debbie, so we are familiar with the topic. In "Crush 5x14", Spike tasers Buffy and chains her up then does the same with Drusilla. Why did Buffy not stake him / decapitate him / burn him / send him into sunlight immediately as soon as she got free or shortly thereafter? In the spirit of @Mr. Pole and the scorpion, here is Al Wilson and "The Snake" and a flashback to a different time:

[youtube]
 
I have even heard a rumour that Marti Noxon was pressured into writing an episode like that to make up for the "forgive your abuser" message of I Only Have Eyes For You and that's why Beauty and the Beasts feels so forced. 🙂
Marti sure likes to work with dodgy themes, however, i do not believe that was the message of the episode. The kid is not even the abuser. He is the murderer. The teacher was clearly the abuser, as she was the adult.

I think the message was that we all have emotions and that we need to learn to deal with them. We cannot let our emotions control us, but it is unhealthy to pretend as if we don't feel.
 
Getting away from the Spike.Buffy 'ship thread, there's another deeply dubious rape-related theme that I'm afraid some of us are missing here- Angelus and Drusilla. He exulted in destroying her family, violating the sanctuary of the convent that she fled to, killed the other nuns in her convent and then raped her, sending her mad, before turning her. And the effects are permanent. Drusilla stays frozen in the character of the deferential madwoman and never, ever breaks free from it, vocalises any hatred toward Angelus or Angel for what he did, or uses her vampirism to avenge what he did to her against him and those he now loves, apart from turning Darla back into a vampire in Los Angeles. If Buffy's self-reproach for her own sexual agency and Spike's attempted rape is disgusting (and I agree, it is), then what about Drusilla? And what would a Drusilla freed from this unimaginative, restrictive characterisation straitjacket be like?
 
Priceless
Priceless
Turning Darla was her revenge on Angel
I know this post is quite old, but I feel the discussion here is still very relevant, so I'll add my two cents worth.

Before I do so, however, let me just preface this by saying I am very much triggered by rape scenes in films, as many women in my family have been victims, and the long-lasting effects of those actions are much greater than anyone can imagine, even across generations. I don't like them as plot devices, and seeing them treated so casually by Hollywood writers leaves me feeling sick for days. I will also say that I am 100% a feminist, fight for equality constantly, and have furthermore had an attempted rape on me twice by the same individual. This is not a subject which I approach lightly.

All of this being said, I am still a Spike fan, and do give him a pass when I don't other characters in other films. Since this is both seemingly contradictory and extremely controversial let me explain.

First,there is the attempt itself. I think James Marsters is a fantastic actor, but he has made it known many times that he had a huge problem filming that scene and that it sent him into therapy, and I think it shows.

One of the reasons why Spike endured so long as a character was simply because the man portraying him is, I think, a much better person than the character was originally intended to be. Some actors wear masks, others pull out parts of themselves and we as the audience see it in the close-ups on the screen. The latter sort add depth to the characters they portray and make us love them. This was how Spike came to be a long running character, rather than a one-off villain.

Fast forward to the attempted rape. I can tell you my attempted attacker had no remorse in his face of any kind. I was inanimate to him, just a thing. The whole time I was being looked through, being disregarded. There was no connection of any kind. It was a senseless act. Perhaps attackers come off differently to different victims, but this is my personal experience with one, and the action was robotic. James, by contrast, looks in pain the whole time the attempt is going on. Spike, consequently, looks in turmoil, like the struggle is going on inside, even while trying to do something so horrible. He looks desperate, but not in a commanding in control sort of way, but in a pleading sort of way. The whole attempt looks like begging. My experience was that attackers don't beg; they tell you what to do.

Then, Buffy throws Spike, and as soon as the wall hits his head he's in full regret. It is almost as if the hit jogs some sense back into him, and he realizes what he is doing. He immediately regrets the last few minutes, and it shows on his face.

Later, in the crypt, Spike is disgusted with himself. He ponders why he tried to do something so terrible, then he asks why he couldn't. Vampires are evil, after all, and I think it is hinted throughout other episodes that pre-Buffy Spike had raped indiscriminately before. So, why the self-loathing and introspection now?

Many people cite Spike's definitive change happening after being re-souled, but I have felt that the attempted rape is actually where the change begins, and for all of the reasons stated above. Even while something so horrendous is going on, there are subtle changes happening to the character. That is both excellent writing and excellent acting, and I am often surprised that people cannot see it.

I'm not just deluding this perspective either, because the inspiration for this scene was in fact a real life incident with one of the writers, only it was a woman trying to force herself on her ex-boyfriend. As it has been described, the writer called it her worst day, the day that she talked about to no one, and the one she was most ashamed of. She felt if she and her boyfriend could just make love one more time they could get back together. She was desperate, and at some point lost sense of her boundaries and pushed too far. The boyfriend had to forcibly push her off and tell her to leave, just like Buffy did Spike. She felt low and horrible, and they used that incident for Spike, so we don't have to wonder about how Spike is feeling or thinking, because the real life model exists.

Does all of this still make it attempted rape? Yes. I will never argue that point. So, then why does Spike get to be excused?

The easy answer could be that Spike and Buffy are the work of fantasy, fiction, and are completely impossible in a real-world setting, so exceptions must be made for extraordinary circumstances. However, I'm not going to make this hole I've made for myself that easy to dig myself out of. Even in a real-world, non-vampire setting, I think I'd still forgive/excuse Spike, when I can't other characters or people. So, why?

The answer for me is in the execution. The writer who inspired the scene was pleading with her boyfriend, and Spike was pleading with Buffy. Pleading is not a controlling position, but rape is. At some point, one can cross over into the other. The pleading stops, and a sense of entitlement takes over. That sense of entitlement is where the rape happens, when your will becomes the only thing that is important. Spike starts to go there. The writer obvously started to go there, but they didn't stay there, and their realizations and self-horror are not long in coming, but immediate. How committed to the act of forcing your will on another can you be when the moment is fleeting? How many of us have had horrible fleeting thoughts? Ever been so mad you thought you could kill? Even for half a second? How much of a mass murderer are you at the end of the day?

It is a debatable point, but I feel that if Buffy had been unsuccessful in stopping Spike, the realization would have eventually come before the damage was done. Rapists don't care if their victims cry. They don't care that they hurt them. They are nothing to them. Spike clearly cares, which is huge if you're talking about someone who used to be a rapist. Buffy's tears mean something to him, and they do the impossible, make an evil creature realize he doesn't want to do evil anymore. It is a very different kind of attempted rape scene than any show I've ever seen, or experienced, vicariously or otherwise.

By contrast, let us look at another scene in the series, and one that, to me, seems more like rape than the actual rape scene, and that is when Spike tries to bite Willow just after being chipped. He barges in, struts about, claims her screams are a bonus, throws her to the bed, and completely disregards her. This is evil Spike. This is also what this looked like in real life, to me. The second attempt my attacker made on me, he was clearly enjoying himself, while I still remained just a thing.

Joss Whedon has stated many times his original premise for the show was to show real world problems in the shape of actual monsters. Spike may have been going for a bite on Willow, but to me, it was always a stand-in for a dorm room rape. This being the case, the actual attempted rape in "Seeing Red" had more soul in it than any of the previous episodes or seasons had. It was transformative, even before Spike went to see a demon about a girl.

Secondly, as for people saying Buffy is a victim during her tumultuous sexual relationship with Spike, I vehemently disagree. Yes, she is broken in season 6,and in a healthy real world scenario, should have eschewed a relationship with anyone until she got professional help, but to say she is a victim is, I feel, a bit far. Buffy is, at worst, confused about herself and her feelings for Spike and the world around her. I also see in her someone who wants to be excused for feeling the way she does about the world around her and the bad boy conveniently makes that happen. If he wants sex, well, then she can just excuse herself of all the culpability of wanting the same. It is worth noting that the bad boy trope, as well as a fantasy of rape, has been cited as a real thing women sometimes engage in because both limit their culpability for their own desires. I don't think Buffy asks to be raped, or in any way wants it in Seeing Red, but I do feel her sexual relationship throughout the rest of the season fits very much into that way of thinking.

Anyway, here is my explanation.
 
I’ve got to be honest even with the soul or no soul issue I always find the AR makes S7 Spuffy uncomfortable. It’s horrendously codependant and I hate that there’s more emphasis on Buffy using Spike for sex than there is on the AR. But I’m largely staying out of that argument as I tend to get obnoxious on the Spuffy issue 😂

For me the worst example of victim blaming in the entire Buffyverse is the toxic mess that is Sanctuary. This is possibly the one episode that gets me frothing at the mouth as much as Empty Places. An episode that tells us Buffy needs to forget about the fact she’s been violated in every way possible because Faith feels sad about it

I should add that I find Buffy (outside of that bizarre final scene and her overreaction to being hit), Faith, Cordy and Wes all absolutely fine in this episode and act within how you would expect their characters to act. Angel however is completely insufferable.

I hate how this episode writes Wes and Buffy, it has to make them the judgemental bad guys to make Angel the dashing hero. Wes (who less than 24 hours previously was being sadistically tortured) apparently just needs to ‘come around’ and Buffy throughout is painted as being completely unreasonable because she can’t instantly forgive someone who has genuinely enjoyed trying to ruin every aspect of Buffy’s life. Angel’s lack of empathy towards both characters is absolutely shocking and the way he just stares blankly whenhe says he knows what she did to Buffy displays a total lack of empathy. It’s completely possible to support someone but you also can’t just ignore what that person did. I love that Angel is helping Faith but he’s actually not helping when he’s basically getting her to dodge what she did, he does this twice in this episode. First when Faith tries to talk about Buffy and the second when Buffy actually turns up. Angel tells Buffy she can’t ‘understand what Faith’s going through’ why should she care? In S3 can you imagine if they’d said ‘oh Angel you can’t understand what Wes is going through’ when Connor gets taken, absolutely not because nobody would be so ignorant to dismiss his pain like that

There tends to be lots of posts about how awful Buffy is in Sanctuary and I hate that that’s the route they go down to make Angel look good (the episode is also barely about Faith, she’s reduced to being a plot device for most of the episode. I’m so glad Eliza decided to come back as her character ending in that way would have been such a waste). For me Wes and Buffy are the real heroes in this episode as they are the ones who actually put their feelings aside to save Faith’s life and yet it’s Angel whose swinging his cape about it and we get told ‘wow Buffy’s a real bitch isn’t she!’

Lots of characters in the verse support people on their redemptions. Angel is the only one who puff’s out his chest to tell us he’s ‘Saving souls!’ and attaching part of the credit to himself. I love Angel in general but this episode is him at his most obnoxious
 
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I'd have to say that yeah, Spike did try recompense for what he tried to do to her, but the fact remains, it was an attempted rape. I quite liked Xander and Dawn's angry confrontation with him afterward. However, for me, the damage was done in the AR scene. I found myself unable to relate to Spike as a character afterward.

Getting back to Drusilla. I don't think that turning Darla was enough revenge for her own centuries of suffering.and inability to express it. It's a serious flaw in her characterisation and character development. She never seemed to evolve from the static portrayal of the dangerous lunatic, and for that reason, a potentially interesting character got sidelined as a result.
 
Getting back to Drusilla. I don't think that turning Darla was enough revenge for her own centuries of suffering.and inability to express it. It's a serious flaw in her characterisation and character development. She never seemed to evolve from the static portrayal of the dangerous lunatic, and for that reason, a potentially interesting character got sidelined as a result.

I wouldn't call turning Darla back into a vampire was revenge because Dru never saw it that way, she did it because she thought it was what Darla wanted "to be saved".

I think Angelus trained Drusilla to respond to him in a sexual way. It's why she can torture Angel yet rolls over for Angelus (she recognises when he "master" is back), it's also why Spike doesn't blame her and lays the blame 100% at Angelus' door but is quick to call her out on the Chaos demon. Drusilla is Angelus' victim and always will be.
 
So this thread has turned from 'the tendency to blame the victim' to 'I feel so bad for Spike the attempted-rapist, I feel his pain'. Jesus H Christ 😡


Also it's off-topic but I can't resist.

For me the worst example of victim blaming in the entire Buffyverse is the toxic mess that is Sanctuary. This is possibly the one episode that gets me frothing at the mouth as much as Empty Places. An episode that tells us Buffy needs to forget about the fact she’s been violated in every way possible because Faith feels sad about it
Angel however is completely insufferable.


How does Angel blame Buffy for what Faith did to her?
All I remember is him telling her that she doesn't have an automatic right to vengeance.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
I think it's a good thing that we can empathize with people. Shows we have compassion.
So this thread has turned from 'the tendency to blame the victim' to 'I feel so bad for Spike the attempted-rapist, I feel his pain'. Jesus H Christ 😡


Also it's off-topic but I can't resist.





How does Angel blame Buffy for what Faith did to her?
All I remember is him telling her that she doesn't have an automatic right to vengeance.
The characters themselves don’t blame Buffy but I feel like the episode frames Buffy and Wes as being wrong not to instantly forgive her. Wes apparently just needs to ‘come around’ and Buffy is framed as the judgemental bad guy for still feeling a lot of pain for what happened. Apparently Buffy just ‘can’t understand what Faith is going through’ I just feel it’s an awful line to say to someone who really has had something terrible happen to her, or when he stares blankly at Buffy when she says ‘do you know what she did to me?’. I love Angel helping Faith, I’m fine with him defending her to Buffy of course I am. I am not ok with him (in my eyes) completely dismissing what Buffy’s been through or categorising Wes as needing to ‘come around’ when he’s still in a lot of pain from being tortured just the night before

Now if Buffy had smothered an injured Faith screaming that she’ll never forgive her or got one of her friends to shoot her while defenceless because she’s decided she’s not worthy of wanting to change then Angel would absolutely have the right to call out Buffy for being blinded by vengeance, I think Buffy is hot headed and painfully stubborn but I don’t think she’s as unreasonable as Angel paints her as being
 
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N
NoShip
Well.....Whedon & Co do a terrible job of dealing with forgiveness. Many examples of bads guys forgiven while the people harmed become bad guys for not forgiving. Whedon's ethics.
I don't think that trying to understand why the attempted rape happened in the first place is the same thing as putting all, or any, of the blame on Buffy. What Spike did was wrong by any definition of the word. His actions were deplorable. "Seeing Red" was the writers' way of providing a catalyst that would inspire Spike to do what, for a vampire, was unimaginable and almost impossible :Willingly undertake the task of regaining his soul. I sincerely wish that they had come up with a better way to do it, but that is the way that Joss decided that it should be done.

I also don't think that Buffy being willing to not only forgive, but totally dismiss the entire thing the next year is in any way a weakness in her character. Whether we choose to accept the fact or not, it has been clearly established that ensouled Spike is a totally different person than soulless Spike, and is not responsible for his actions, any more than Angel is in any way responsible for the actions of Angelus. The fact that Spike doesn't change his name or assume guilt for those actions in the same way that Angel feels guilt for the actions of Angelus might seen distasteful to some fans, just as it was to Giles and the Scoobies, but the point was that Buffy made that differentiation. How could she not do so, and still have forgiven, and even loved, Angel in Season 3, though I have never heard anywhere near the objections for her actions then as I do for her doing exactly the same thing in Season 7.

Is murder, torture, and even attempting, and almost succeeding at, destroying the world, somehow less heinous than attempted rape? Forgiveness is forgiveness, and it should be impartial, as long as the person asking for it is sincere, as both Angel and Spike were. It is completely in character to unquestionably forgive both Angel and Spike, even in the face of her friends' objections. The major flaw in her character in this regard, in my opinion, is that she couldn't show the same level of forgiveness to Faith, a fellow Slayer, that she did to two formerly soulless murdering monsters.
Sorry I'm continuing here - Buffy knows Angel isn't Angelus and she knows Spike in seeking ensoulement showed a clear desire for atonement and reformation even if it was partially selfishly motivated and he was unaware of the full consequences. With Faith she doesn't have it - it doesn't make reconciliation with Faith impossible but it makes it harder because there isn't that line.

I keep arguing this but that line doesn't reconcile to real life. I get people think Spuffy is about excusing abuse but many people have no guarantee their abuser is genuine in seeking redemption and every reason to believe they aren't including their own self protection.

I think there are echoes of Spike's behaviour in a real life abusive situation but she's abusive too. That's not saying she 'deserves' the events of Seeing Red - that's on him and the fact he can't understand why she meant no this time and he didn't. However I think she forgives him in part because she knows she had some responsibility - however depressed and manipulated she was she made choices and she did so selfishly unlike many abuse victims she wasn't entirely powerless or under the delusion she could change him into a good person.
 
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