No Means No – A Look At Victim Blaming In the Buffyverse Fandom

The characters themselves don’t blame Buffy but I feel like the episode frames Buffy and Wes as being wrong not to instantly forgive her. Wes apparently just needs to ‘come around’ and Buffy is framed as the judgemental bad guy for still feeling a lot of pain for what happened.

Honestly I've never heard this interpretation of the episode, especially about Wesley. Wesley's opinion is entirely valid and Cordelia noticeably takes his side. And Angel confronts Faith about it (the popcorn scene'. The episode is very much 'Angel is on his own' and questions several times whether he is even right to do so. The episode shows Faith to be unstable as well as genuinely remorseful. It wouldn't do that if it truly wanted to show Angel as 'righteous', it just shows him as 'invested'.

Apparently Buffy just ‘can’t understand what Faith is going through’ I just feel it’s an awful line to say to someone who really has had something terrible happen to her, or when he stares blankly at Buffy when she says ‘do you know what she did to me?’.

Also right after this Buffy asks Angel 'Do you care?' about what Faith did to her, which is kinda crappy given their history. Buffy is far from perfect in this episode and, whilst I understand completely with her attitude towards Faith she is really self-righteous towards Angel. And he never once says for Buffy to 'get over it' or whatever. All he says is to consider the other point of view, which she is so dismissive of.


To compare this with Spuffy the viewer is shown Faith's remorse and although we are allowed to empathise with that its never at the expense of her victims. Buffy angrily confronts Faith, which is important, and Wesley (on his own) overcomes his resentment because he believes in Angel's mission. Not to mention the great interactions between Wes and Faith many years later in s4.

Imagine if Faith told Buffy on the rooftop 'yeah, well you tried to stab me so whatever' whilst still proclaiming her guilt and remorse for the wrongs done to Buffy, then you'd have an equivalency.
 
They also heavily implied that Spike was almost as bad as Angel, if not worse, back when he was introduced. One preferred quality of murder and torture, the other quantity. All vampires are evil, some are just more cowardly, some are lazier, some are more creative in their murder and torture but they are all fully evil. Or at least that was the case initially, until the writers made the (incredibly dumb) decision to turn Spike into a romantic hero, to introduce nonsense like vampire brothels where humans pay to have their blood sucked and vampires refrain from killing. Let's not even get started about the vampires in public plot in season 8.



Yes, ironically, the more control over his actions one ascribes to soulless Spike, the more he should be blamed for these actions. I mean, if he craves murder so much that he is willing to kill himself over his inability to extend his killing spree that's one thing. If he can suppress his murderous impulses but decides not to bother because murder if fun, then he is no more deserving of a second chance with a soul than he is without it, that is to say not at all.
Why should someone who could occasionally act against their worse nature and seek to change somehow be worse than someone who had no humanity in them who was reformed against their will? That makes no sense whatsoever looked at objectively. The demon in the vampire is a river following downhill or a force of gravity - any movement upstream or climb is a assertion of humanity or a force of will to defy it, any movement downwards is their nature overcoming it of their humanity not being strong enough. Angel bravely does this fight but he does it with his soul. Spike fought to gain a soul and then to know how to use it Angel does to use and then to retain it - both were/are hard and it takes nothing anyway from either to acknowledge that difference.
 
Honestly I've never heard this interpretation of the episode, especially about Wesley. Wesley's opinion is entirely valid and Cordelia noticeably takes his side. And Angel confronts Faith about it (the popcorn scene'. The episode is very much 'Angel is on his own' and questions several times whether he is even right to do so. The episode shows Faith to be unstable as well as genuinely remorseful. It wouldn't do that if it truly wanted to show Angel as 'righteous', it just shows him as 'invested'.



Also right after this Buffy asks Angel 'Do you care?' about what Faith did to her, which is kinda crappy given their history. Buffy is far from perfect in this episode and, whilst I understand completely with her attitude towards Faith she is really self-righteous towards Angel. And he never once says for Buffy to 'get over it' or whatever. All he says is to consider the other point of view, which she is so dismissive of.


To compare this with Spuffy the viewer is shown Faith's remorse and although we are allowed to empathise with that its never at the expense of her victims. Buffy angrily confronts Faith, which is important, and Wesley (on his own) overcomes his resentment because he believes in Angel's mission. Not to mention the great interactions between Wes and Faith many years later in s4.

Imagine if Faith told Buffy on the rooftop 'yeah, well you tried to stab me so whatever' whilst still proclaiming her guilt and remorse for the wrongs done to Buffy, then you'd have an equivalency.
I do agree with you regarding comparisons between Buffy/Faith/Wes and Buffy/Spike. I have always thought the aftermath and underlying issues on both sides with Buffy/Faith is dealt with far better in 5 episodes than the entire season 7 deals with the aftermath of S6 Spuffy. I’ve never felt there was victim blaming with Buffy/Faith in general , it’s just my own reading of a couple of scenes in Sanctuary. I should add I adore the rooftop scene and that’s done very well so swings and roundabouts

Honestly that’s purely just my interpretation of Sanctuary, I could be reading it totally wrong. I’ve always just found the episode a wasted opportunity and S4/7 deals with the aftermath a LOT better
 
Honestly that’s purely just my interpretation of Sanctuary, I could be reading it totally wrong.

I wouldn't say wrong at all, I understand people taking Buffy's side in 'Sanctuary' even if I really like the Angel/Faith dynamic and side with the idea of redemption over payback.
Also this episode solidifies Angel as a character completely separate from Bangel. He is definitely his own man.

I'll admit that the only bit I don't understand is your take on Wes, as I explained above. Personally I feel he really comes into his own as a character this ep and gets some great development. Him standing up to Angel is as import and Angel standing up to Buffy, its good for him.
 
So I come at this from two places 1) I love the potential of Spuffy but hate almost everything in s6 and 2) Buffy is never wrong. I mean never.

I love love love so much the way she confides in him about being in heaven. the way she goes to him when she can't be around the others, the way he has kept count of how many days she is dead and gently takes her to the sofa to fix up her hands - while her friends burst in all noise and confusion and demanding things of her. I love everything between them from the end of 'Intervention' when she kisses to him to the end of 'OMWF' ... when she kisses him.

After that kiss, though - things start to change. She made a mistake and admits as much. But he thinks he is making progress and won't let it go. He comes to her when she is another vulnerable moment and she makes the same mistake again and again. The next time she sees him she tells him it was a mistake but he doesn't let it go.

Now I don't particularly blame him for that. Hope springs eternal and all. Just because he wants it to mean more than it does doesn't make him a bad person (though the fact that he is a bad person makes him a bad person) and being pushy and pressing his point is forgivable because people really do that. They want what they want and they try to get it. Of course, in his case he's only getting any success because she is in such a low place - and I would expect a human to recognise that, and judge them for not backing off - but Spike isn't human, he doesn't have a soul - I get it, he doesn't get it. That's not technically his fault.

Neither is it her fault for continually making the same mistake. She's incredibly low, he's there wanting something of her and she gives in to make herself feel better. She always owns up to it and tries to tell him it was a mistake.

They are just working at cross purposes and she is too depressed and he is too soulless to realise that, in the moment (though she always recognises it after the fact).

Once he finds out he can hurt her, though, he changes completely - from being this rather sweet presence, hopefully hanging around her and genuinely wanting to help even if he is actually muddying the waters, to wanting to hurt her. The way he tells her she came back wrong, the way he beats her - it is vicious and cruel and I hate it. I think it stems from him having her on a pedestal, believing she is so far above him and too good for him and then, when he thinks she isn't human, that topples her in his mind and he wants to punish her for acting like she was better than him when she wasn't.

And Buffy is so depressed and feeling so wrong anyway that she reacts to this by letting it happen, by embracing it. It's almost a relief to her that there is a reason she feels this way - and it is because she is not who she was before.

What stems from that is their sexual relationship, where I absolutely balk at the idea that it is mutually abusive. The only abusive act Buffy perpetrates is the extent to which she beats him up in Dead Things. In everything else, Spike is absolutely the abuser. Buffy using him for sex is not abusive - especially when she tells him this time and time again. She never tells him she loves him, she never pretends it's more than it is, she doesn't even pretend she isn't disgusted with herself for doing it. She is completely honest about what this relationship is to her and how she feels about it and him. Spike could absolutely refuse those terms and conditions. The reason he doesn't is because he doesn't believe her when she says she doesn't love him. But that is on him not her. She is honest. His delusion is not her fault.

In their relationship, she turns up at his crypt for no strings sex and is quite open and blunt about the fact she doesn't really like him. He repeatedly turns up at her place of work, where she is feeling her lowest; he follows her home and badgers her for sex when she just wants to get inside and back to Dawn; he turns up on her night out with her friends and whispers horrible things in her ear and has sex with her even after she has told him to stop; he doesn't accept her breaking up with him and he threatens to tell her friends about them unless she sleeps with him again - telling her they would cast her out if they knew.

Their actions are not really comparable. And any attempt to make them comparable just comes across as judgement on a woman for daring to have sex with a man she didn't love.

But then this is where my mind divides in two: between hating what happens in the show and forgiving the character who does it. I think the show definitely tries to make the relationship seem mutually abusive through what characters say, despite that not actually being shown in their actions. That is dangerous and victim blaming. I think it depicts a clear example of rape in Dead Things and acts as if it is no big deal - because it isn't violent. That is dangerous. I think making the attempted rape a jumping off point for his redemption arc is dangerous and in poor taste. I think not showing Buffy dealing with this in any truly meaningful way and instead focusing on Spike's reactions is dangerous and misogynistic. I think trying to keep Spike likeable despite his actions throughout the season was a mistake. I think there are a whole load of frankly disturbing mixed messages that are sent out, made all the worse when it is considered that Buffy's core audience was teenagers and most likely girls, and that the writers were either not skilled enough or not aware enough to make what they wrote OK, and find a way to send out a coherent message that was mindful of who was watching and learning from this show.

However, this is all an extratextual mess created by the writers and I don't blame Spike for it, and I don't hate him for his actions. Because Spike is evil. He is. We love him - but he is. And so I can accept that when he insists she does love him and tries to drag her down into the dark with him he is - in his own way - trying to help. He thinks he understands the darkness inside of her and that she can only be happy once she owns it and starts living that dark life - that she is living a lie with the scoobies and she cannot be happy living a lie.

I think this is equal parts wishful thinking (and I can't blame him for wishful thinking) and a consequence of him being an evil, twisted creature without a soul, particularly one that has started to act against his own nature. He isn't trying to hurt her, he isn't trying to abuse her - he genuinely thinks he's helping (which is him acting against his nature), but his help is the help of an evil, unsouled monster (which is his nature). So of course it is no good

Because Spike isn't more noble than other vampires, he isn't more inherently good and he certainly doesn't have a partial soul, like Fury said he did. What he has is a chip. A behavioural modification chip. And it is modifying his behaviour. Now what it was supposed to do and how it was supposed to work is up for debate, but he had it installed in lab conditions and was supposed to remain in lab conditions. He didn't - and now the experiment has gone off the rails. He isn't receiving any of the added checks or brainwashing he was supposed to receive, but he is still being conditioned by the pain. Not only does it physically restrain him, but it also forces him to change the way he does things to work around the pain. So he has become dependent on the scoobies - and has to help them in order to survive. And that changes the way he acts around them, and how he sees them - particularly Buffy.

I believe he does really love Buffy - like he really loved Drusilla. Vampires are capable of love between each other. They can even remember love for the people they loved in life. But he can only love her - a human he met as a vampire - because of the chip forcing its changes on him. Even so, his fundamental nature isn't changed, it's surface level; changes made in order to ensure his continued survival. Spike doesn't know this, though. He thinks it's real - he says as much in s5 in Crush. He starts comparing himself to Angel, he claims that he can be good. And he is doing good things - and loving a good person. No wonder it seems real enough to him. But at heart he is still twisted and dark and evil.

So when Buffy is in pain, he truly wants to help. He truly tries to help. But he is dark and twisted, so the help he offers is dark and twisted. He doesn't accept her telling him she doesn't love him or that it is over, because he truly believes this is her fighting against her nature and she needs him to show her it's OK to give into it.

...which is how we get to the AR. And from a character perspective I suppose it makes a certain sense - it's just horrible to watch and it would have been preferable if they hadn't gone there.

But in Entropy he tells Buffy of all the terrible things he might be accused of, he doesn't hurt her. Then he inadvertently hurts her by sleeping with Anya and her finding out. So he goes to put it right. And ends up hurting her even worse. Because as a monster he cannot help but hurt her.

And that moment, when he sees the pain and shock and betrayal in her face, and realises what he has done, that is when he realises that he has been wrong about being good, about helping her, about thinking she could love him. That is when he realises the chip's changes did nothing to change his nature and it is that which has just come out, it is that that Buffy rejects and it is why she won't ever want to be with him. It throws him into a full on existential crisis - which we see - he genuinely thought he was different, he wanted to be different for Buffy, and now he realises he's not - and he decides the only thing he can do is change his nature, which means getting his soul. So he does that. And once he has his soul he can view their relationship with much more clarity - and realises things he didn't see even after the AR.

All that is fine, all that is in character and none of it makes me dislike Spike. I also don't mind Buffy drawing a line between Spike with a soul and Spike without, because she has shown capacity to do that with Angel, she didn't hold hyena Xander's sexual assault of her against him ... the entire premise of Angel's show is predicated on the audience not hating the souled version of Angel for what Angelus did. It's only fair Spike is treated the same.

But the way we get there does feel like an irresponsible story line handled badly by writers who didn't really understand the implications of what they were writing. And it does feel like, in order to make Spike seem less reprehensible, they do try and place the blame for everything equally on Buffy. Which is not OK - because she is the victim. But the show goes out of it's way, in this things Spike says, to make it seem like Buffy using him for sex is somehow level with everything he did.

I don't blame Buffy at all for what happens, but the show does and I'm not OK with it. I can still like Spuffy because I can rationalise the victim blaming as bad writing and understand how what happened happened because of the chip - that Spike was still inherently evil, with a wish to be good pasted over the top and even that wish came from a selfish place. And that he didn't fully understand any of that until after he got his soul back.

I wish the show had leaned into that explanation rather than try and minimise his actions with false equivalence. They don't try and pretend Angelus is anything but as evil as he is, and yet they take it for granted that we will enjoy his presence and forgive Angel for everything Angelus does. I don't understand why they didn't want us to see Spike as evil when he was - and just have us be OK with that, as we always had been.

It is the fact that they try and make something morally grey when it is actually black and white that is most troubling to me.
 
Faded90
Faded90
Fabulous post!
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NoShip
Wow!!!!! 🥰
@Myheadsgonenumb I always see the Spuffy relationship as an addict storyline with Buffy as the addict and Spike the addiction. She uses him to make herself feel better, she thinks she's in control, that she can pick up and drop Spike as and when she chooses (hence why most the sex happens at the crypt). However, as time goes on, she begins to lose control of her addiction. Suddenly it's at her work, it's at her house, it's on a night out with her friends, always encouraging her to indulge and she does. The balcony scene in Dead things is not rape in my opinion. It's essentially Buffy shooting up in a dark corner. She said no, however she makes absolutely no move whatsoever to stop Spike, literally her arms stay resting on the railing. It's akin to an addict saying they shouldn't as they stick the needle in their arms.

Buffy has agency in Spuffy. She makes bad choices, those choices come from the emotional state she's in, however she chooses to make those choices. She is the one who initiates the first sexual contact with Spike after he tells her she came back wrong, and in many ways I think she viewed that as permission to be self destructive. She's disgusted with her behaviour but she justifies it because she "came back wrong" and I don't think Spike put that idea in her head, she was already feeling it and his chip not working on her only confirmed it. When Tara tells her that she didn't come back wrong, Buffy is upset because she now has no excuse for her behaviour, she didn't come back wrong, it's all her. She chose to do those things with Spike.

I do think you're correct in that Spike views himself as helping Buffy and Buffy is in such a bad way that he's actually doing more harm than good but because he's soulless he can't recognise that. However, I think the problem with Spuffy is that people try to assign blame to one or the other when the truth is they both have culpability for how things went down. Spike didn't make Buffy do anything against her will (and the AR, which is when he is trying to make her do something against her will, clearly shows he's in the wrong) however Buffy is in such a bad place that she is clearly not thinking with a clear mind. She wants to feel something and Spike does make her feel good about herself temporarily (the "high") but then she feels disgusted and ashamed of herself when she goes back to the scoobies and so she re-uses to feel that high again and the cycle continued. Spike wants to help Buffy but in a way he enabled her self-destructiveness because it benefitted him. He wanted to go public about their relationship initially but Buffy wanted to keep it secret then it became something he could use to keep her using him.

I think Spuffy became too complex for the writing to handle. The issues within were too nuanced to accurately portray in a 40 minute episode alongside all the other stuff that was happening. How much time to Buffy and Spike actually spend together in a scene per episode throughout Season 6 where that scene is purely focussed on them and not slaying business or with the scoobies etc?
 
@Myheadsgonenumb and @DeadlyDuo both make excellent points in these last two posts. However, I tend to agree with @DeadlyDuo about Buffy having agency over her actions in the relationship, no matter how twisted it was. The relationship was mutually problematic, abusive, chaotic, twisted, and addictive. They both had highs and lows. Hence, I don't see the victim blaming on the part of the writing.

Consider when Buffy was invisible and Spike became disappointed that he couldn't bring his relationship with her out in the open. He literally says he would rather she shove off if he can't have all of her, then she is the one to use oral sex on him to try and change his mind. They both go back and forth. They want each other, then they say they don't want each other. They help each other, then they hurt each other. Yes, Buffy repeatedly said she didn't love Spike, but she also knew the relationship meant more to Spike than it did to her, and that playing with him only hurt him, yet she played with him all the same. They both didn't mind hurting each other to get what they wanted. It's a complicated relationship.

However, as for this complicated relationship being handled poorly in the show, I tend to disagree. What more would have satisfied people with exploring this relationship? There was an entire roller coaster of emotions, plots, revelations, and conclusions to this story. I don't know how much more could have been hammered on this without looping back to what had already been done rather well.
 
I don't think Buffy didn't have agency, I just don't think it's true she abuses him as he is abusing her. Their actions are not comparable. She chooses to go to him on her terms - and that is fine. But when he starts cropping up when she tells him to leave her alone, seeks her out when she is alone and vulnerable and doesn't take no for an answer, that's when it crosses the line. And she has asked him to leave her alone at work, he keeps coming back. She tells him no outside her house, he keeps on asking until she gives in and she says stop at the Bronze and he doesn't.

I like the take of Spike as an addiction, that works as a good metaphor - the way he keeps cropping up and she can't contain him to one part of her life. it falls down though, because heroin is not sentient and does not follow an addict around, they have to seek it out. And Spike's abuse of her happens in those places where he has sought her out, despite her not looking to be with him.

I think she doesn't treat him with respect and treats him quite sh*tilly, and it is wrong of her to treat any sexual partner that way, but part of that bad treatment is how blunt and honest she is about not liking him. It is perhaps unfair of her to expect Spike to stay in a box for when she wants him and then to go away when he isn't convenient - but she is quite open about it (I think she even calls him convenient at one point). He could refuse those terms by refusing to sleep with her when she comes to him and not being her sex toy (he does exactly this in Gone - he just doesn't stick to it). But that's all she has to offer - it's entirely his choice to take it or leave it. But going along with what she wants when she comes to him does not give him the right to follow her around and make demands, when she has been clear this isn't a 'relationship' and she has said 'no.'

Her conditions are 'when I want you, where I want you and nothing else' - he is trying to be the 'boyfriend' ... but a soulless attempt at one. Her demands are not kind but they're not abusive, whereas his attempts to be the 'boyfriend' often cross that line.

I do fully accept that this all becomes a hideous problem because he is evil and she is depressed and if either one of them was in a place to actually work through it like an adult and treat the other with the respect you should treat a partner, then the whole thing could be sorted out with a simple chat. For part of the season neither of them are in that place, it is neither of their fault - this is just where they are - but even so, the result is destructive. But then she does reach that place, she does have that chat and walk away ... only Spike is evil and so can't see her point of view and keeps on pushing. That is entirely his wrongdoing but it is on account of his being evil and I don't hold it against him any more than I hold all the people he killed against him.
Of course in real life I would, but in the show - it's fine. Though on Buffy's end she is still being stalked, manipulated and then attacked and it is the fact that the show attempts, in it's characters dialogue, to create parity between the actions of the two that is wrong of the writers and comes across as victim blaming. Only the AR is really treated as a moral event horizon, within the show - but that is the culmination of a lot of bad behaviour on Spike's part that is overlooked, or excused as being down to Buffy sending mixed signals or using him. When really Spike's behaviour is down to no one but him and has been crossing lines since he first fell in love with her. The real excuse for his behaviour is he is evil, doesn't know better and can't help it - I don't understand why the writers don't push that line.

I have to disagree on the balcony scene, though (which is fine, the world and these boards would be a boring place if we all agreed all the time) - because she is not sticking a needle in her arm, he is sticking his d*ck in her. After she told him to stop.

To quote Xander: Stop means no and no means no - so I'll stop.

She is passive and he is the active one, she has said stop. The answer to stop is not 'make me' - it's 'OK then.' The fact that he doesn't stop and that she does nothing else to stop him meaning people don't view it as rape is exactly why it is so dangerous. She has said no. That is the end of it - the onus is not then on her to stop him from raping her. Her 'no' is enough. Her not showing any inclination to take part or enjoy it is enough. If it's not a 'hell yes', then it is a 'hell no'. Add in the emotional abuse he whispers in her ear which freezes her in place, and this is not her making an active choice to do the bad thing while saying she shouldn't, this is a bad thing being done to her and her too emotionally worn down to stop it.
 
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NoShip
Clearly reasoned, logical, rational, unemotional. I love your post.
@Myheadsgonenumb Great post re the abusive nature of Spuffy. My only caveat would be that although I don't think Buffy is abusive to Spike, she doesn't always pretend it's a no strings relationship in which she gets nothing from Spikes emotions towards her

BUFFY: Whatever he's doing, he's doing it soon.
SPIKE: (looking her up and down) Soon but not now?
(Beat. Buffy just looks at him.}
BUFFY: (quietly) Tell me you love me.
SPIKE: (surprised) I love you. You know I do.
(She takes a couple of steps closer.)
BUFFY: Tell me you want me.
SPIKE: (whispers) I always want you. In point of fact-
BUFFY: Shut up.

I think Buffy believes it's a no strings attached, just for sex, relationship, but here she reveals that there is far more going on for her, perhaps subconsciously. When faced with Riley and Sam she turns to Spike for the emotional support she can't get from her friends. Buffy needs Spike to love her to make it okay to sleep with him. To me that is a kind of abuse.
 
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NoShip
I dont read the scene that way. Buffy's world has been rocked and Spike is convenient comfort. No more.
I don't think Buffy didn't have agency, I just don't think it's true she abuses him as he is abusing her. Their actions are not comparable. She chooses to go to him on her terms - and that is fine. But when he starts cropping up when she tells him to leave her alone, seeks her out when she is alone and vulnerable and doesn't take no for an answer, that's when it crosses the line. And she has asked him to leave her alone at work, he keeps coming back. She tells him no outside her house, he keeps on asking until she gives in and she says stop at the Bronze and he doesn't.
In OMWF Spike begs Buffy to leave him in peace, yet it is she who keeps coming to him.

In Tabula Rasa we have a scene in The Bronze, where Buffy sits at the bar and Spike comes up to her. She turns away from him and he walks away. The next we see them,they're under the stairs kissing. To me this sums up the relationship because we just don't know if Spike came back or Buffy followed him. It could have been either. This relationship is so complex there is just no absolute knowing.
 
In OMWF Spike begs Buffy to leave him in peace, yet it is she who keeps coming to him.

At the end of the song, she runs away and he shouts 'are you not staying then?'. When he comes into the magic box with the puppet guy she says 'I thought you wanted me to stay away' and he gets all shirty about it. You're right, we don't know who does what some of the time but despite telling her to stay away from him, he doesn't stay away from her either.

The scene in Tabula Rasa is what I meant about him genuinely trying to help and getting it wrong. He wants to be there for her, so he comes to her- all hopeful. The last thing she actually needs is him right now, but because she is so low she takes what comfort he has to offer. She tells him straight up next time she sees him that this was a mistake, but he doesn't believe her. He keeps following her on patrol trying to get her to kiss him again, or at least talk about it - having told her to stay away, he is now seeking her out more than she is seeking him.

But all this is before he finds out he can hurt her - and after that there is a definite shift in their relationship, and not just because they start having sex.

In one respect their relationship dynamic is the same as it has been since early s5 - she comes to him for help despite not liking him, and not bothering to disguise that dislike and he follows her around to places where she doesn't want him to be. Her using him for help without much in the way of respect (although occasionally with monetary recompense) is bad behaviour but not comparable to the stalking. Which is a crime.

Now she doesn't need demon hunting and Dawn finding help from him, she needs to feel something. But the terms of the arrangement isn't actually different. She uses him when she needs him and he lets her. And he continues to stalk her, except whereas before it was a mild irritant and mostly harmless, now he does it while whispering things in her ear about how she needs him and he is the only one who understands her and how she should just give up and come and live in the darkness with him. He isn't building shrines to her and stealing her clothes and photos any more, he is getting into her head and telling her she is just like him. He doesn't have her on that pedestal, he is trying to drag her down.

Again - I believe that he believes he's helping. But their relationship has always been: if she wants him she will come and find him. So any time he just pops up in other parts of her life, that is him stalking her. And when that stalking comes with added emotional manipulation, it is more harmful than the fun stalking of s5 or the genuinely concerned stalking of early s6.

Buffy needs Spike to love her to make it okay to sleep with him. To me that is a kind of abuse.

See to me, if this true, that just says Buffy thinks no strings sex is inherently wrong and that maybe it isn't so bad if at least one of them has feelings. It tells me she has had a number done on her about the nature of sexuality and relationships and what she is allowed to want (not by Spike I hasten to add, by the world). She does use Spike for emotional solace when Riley comes back but I think that is the only time we see her use him that way. The rest of the time it is just to feel something and a coping mechanism for her depression.

Riley's return triggers a need to be loved in her, and she can get that from Spike - but it is also what gives her the strength to walk away from him at the end. We never see her ask for Spike's love before this, I don't think - and we do see her openly reject it. So I see her asking Spike to tell her he loves her as being more about her loss of Riley than it is about Spike. She just wants someone to love her, someone to make her feel worthy while asking nothing of her in return (the way her friend's love her). It is selfish, but I wouldn't classify it as abusive and I don't think it is an ongoing part of their normal relationship dynamic. Once Riley treats her with unconditional, no strings love that wants nothing from her she is able to walk away from Spike completely because Riley has been able to give her the souled version of what she is looking for - which Spike can never do.
 
From what I saw yes Buffy used Spike for sexual release and as a form of escape. However I think the fandom and Buffy are too hard with her on this in that she was always honest that they only had sex between them and nothing else. Spike chose to play along hoping it would turn to love or presuming she was in denial about her feelings. For Spike’s part, he was no innocent in Season 6, he encouraged her use of him and manipulated/took advantage of the situation for his own sexual release and also to feel close to Buffy and to satisfy his feelings of love. He definitely wanted more emotion/love from her and to be out in the open about the relationship but if he was happy to accept what she was willing to give. They both treated each other quite badly albeit the writers seem to write it as poor Spike was genuinely in love whereas Buffy was just this awful user, when it is more complicated than this. There is no doubt that Spike loved her but he was selfishly motivated ultimately. Buffy also had complicated feelings for him and was also selfishly motivated. Everything we were shown in Season 6 was more a mutual use/abuse situation. Unfortunately dubious consent was a running theme throughout their physical relationship. There were a lot of power games in their sexual life and I understand Buffy probably had attempted to end things with Spike before but was unable to make it stick. I think the SR scene is very different, they had been broken up for some time, Spike knew the difference. He went from a desperate seduction to try to connect with her again which then moved into attempted rape, it was clear to him she was not consenting. He said ‘I am going to make you feel it’. Actions of a desperate man yes excusable never. In no way should their previous mutual consensual relationship be used to minimise or justify this.
 
The problem with that interpretation is twofold - yes Buffy had broken up with Spike and stuck to it but she's still sending out mixed messages in a sense she tells him to move on and then gets angry when he sleeps with someone else. The second is he doesn't understand the reason why she was earlier wanted to mean no and then does which is that it's linked to a morality he cannot share - soul is linked to conscience to the superego to agape - the universal love and willingness to help and protect fellow souled beings because they are fellow souled beings. Without truly understanding why she says no - he can't accept it and it's his failure not hers and it doesn't mean she 'deserves' what happens but I guess I'm pointing out the ways in which Spike isn't a typical rapist or a correlation to real life although I do understand some are disturbed.

When Spike becomes ensouled he will understand not just no but the reasons behind it and her self hatred - he will also acknowledge she tried to explain it, tell him but it was then beyond his understanding. I find it interesting that Buffy and Spike accuse each other of masochism at different points and I don't think either are right - they are just accepting pain as part of aspects that define them in Buffy's case a desire to do the right thing and in Spike's a sort of passionate Eros that he doesn't really feel alive without. I think his ensoulement opens the door to that understanding and the acknowledgement they were both wrong.

I don't think the show does enforce a poor Spike analogy if anything is on Buffy's side, as it should be it's her show but it doesn't whitewash the fact that she is responsible for her actions and if some see that as 'victim blaming' so be it.
 
N
NoShip
People see it as victim blaming because it IS victim blamimg. So be it.
I wouldn’t classify that as a mixed signal to be honest. It was insensitive of Spike to hook up with her friend albeit he was not deliberately trying to hurt her. I have no issue with the show not whitewashing Buffy’s use or poor treatment of Spike prior to AR but in the same extent I don’t think Spike’s actions of manipulating and took advantage of her for his own benefit should be whitewashed either. Sometimes I feel like some of the fandom whitewash some of Spike’s actions pre the AR because he was in love with her. So it is Buffy the awful user and Spike the poor usee when he welcomed and encouraged the use, instigated and on occasion pressured/cajoled her for sex. He was not some witless victim. Nor was Buffy. It was a complicated dynamic. Lastly the Spike being confused regarding consent due to their prior physical relationship just doesn’t wash with me in the face of him making statements like ‘I am going to make you feel it’. He knew at this point she was not consenting. He was just too far gone in his desperation to stop himself. I feel when people bring up their prior consensual sexual relationship they use it to try to mitigate Spike’s actions.
 
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I wouldn’t classify that as a mixed signal to be honest. It was insensitive of Spike to hook up with her friend albeit he was not deliberately trying to hurt her. I have no issue with the show not whitewashing Buffy’s use or poor treatment of Spike prior to AR but in the same extent I don’t think Spike’s actions of manipulating and took advantage of her for his own benefit should be whitewashed either. It was a complicated dynamic. Lastly the Spike being confused regarding consent due to their prior physical relationship just doesn’t wash with me in the face of him making statements like ‘I am going to make you feel it’. He knew at this point she was not consenting. He was just too far gone in his desperation to stop himself. I feel when people bring up their prior consensual sexual relationship they use it to try to mitigate Spike’s actions.
'I'm going to make you feel it' to me was falling into a previous pattern of in a sense pushing the envelope, a sort of 'I'll remind you of what you're missing'. If Spike knows what he's doing truly why does he look so shocked and devastated when he sees how upset Buffy is and how vehement her words are afterwards? Why do they armour pierce? Why does he recognise the truth in them? Why does he stop after that? Because she does stop him but after that he stops himself in that exchange they both speak the truth about who stopped it. Buffy doesn't deserve it but Spike doesn't do it to be vindictive either. He just doesn't truly understand - it's not an act of dominance or of torture as many such acts are it's one of desperation, a total misunderstanding coming from a inherent moral blindness.
 
Once Riley treats her with unconditional, no strings love that wants nothing from her she is able to walk away from Spike completely because Riley has been able to give her the souled version of what she is looking for - which Spike can never do.

Buffy should be wary of Riley. Their relationship was not as wholesome as the writers like to pretend it was, in fact there were several "red flags" which suggest that, if given time, the relationship would've descended into a controlling relationship. Buffy missing that helicopter was the best thing that could've happened to her even though she didn't realise it. Riley's ultimatum was basically "give me a reason to stay or it's your fault if I leave". If Buffy had caught the helicopter and stopped Riley leaving then she would be trapped in that relationship because she'd feel like she "owed" Riley to try and make it work, even if she was unhappy, because she would've cost Riley the chance to re-join the military.

As much as I dislike Spuffy, at least it was honest about how unhealthy it was for both participants. Briley on the other hand pretends to be this wholesome relationship that Buffy should want when she should be running in the opposite direction. It's why Xander's rant about how Riley is "the one that comes along once in a lifetime" annoys me. Riley is not a good guy and Xander is basically telling Buffy she should tolerate Riley's bad behaviour because she's not going to find anyone better.
 
Faded90
Faded90
Completely agree regarding Riley and Briley
gwenogjones
gwenogjones
oh I'm no fan of Riley, and this episode is shockingly unearned in the way it has him ride in to be the hero - but as it is, it is him that gives her the strength to break it of with Spike.
See to me, if this true, that just says Buffy thinks no strings sex is inherently wrong and that maybe it isn't so bad if at least one of them has feelings. It tells me she has had a number done on her about the nature of sexuality and relationships and what she is allowed to want (not by Spike I hasten to add, by the world). She does use Spike for emotional solace when Riley comes back but I think that is the only time we see her use him that way. The rest of the time it is just to feel something and a coping mechanism for her depression.
I don't read Buffy like this at all. I see her as an incredibly moral person who would find it disturbing to think she's using someone who loves her, while she has no feelings for him. I believe she does actually love Spike, the issue is not that a number has been done on her about sex, but about vampires. Giles, the Council and Angel have told her, since she was 15, that if you don't have a soul you cannot love. Now she's faced with a vampire who swears he loves her, and she believes loves her. I think the issue is that Buffy does't think she is allowed to love him, not that she doesn't. In Season 7 she goes on to ask 'Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?' because she's finally come to realise she can deny the teachings of the council and her world won't fall apart.
 
I believe she does actually love Spike, the issue is not that a number has been done on her about sex, but about vampires. Giles, the Council and Angel have told her, since she was 15, that if you don't have a soul you cannot love. Now she's faced with a vampire who swears he loves her, and she believes loves her.

Agreed. Buffy was peddling the line "you can't love without a soul" in Crush, only to be told by Drusilla "we can love quite well, if not wisely." I'd take the word of a soulless vampire on a soulless vampire's emotional capabilities over a group who just want vampires dead. In many ways the Watchers dehumanise vampires in order to make it easier for slayers to kill them without remorse. Whilst this approach does have some merit (it's no good having a slayer wringing her hands over whether to kill a vampire when that vampire is trying to kill her), at the same time it reduces what is clearly a sentient being to be considered nothing more than an animal.


I think the issue is that Buffy does't think she is allowed to love him, not that she doesn't.

Agreed. Buffy actually seems quite happy in Spike's company at the crypt when it is just the two of them, it's when she's around the scoobies that she feels disgusted by what she's doing with him. She fears judgement from her friends. I think it's also why Buffy starts the sexual relationship with Spike after the "you came back wrong" conversation because she feels like she has permission. She can blame everything on coming back "wrong", she doesn't have to take responsibility for her behaviour. However when Tara tells her she didn't come back wrong, that permission is taken away.
 
I don't read Buffy like this at all. I see her as an incredibly moral person who would find it disturbing to think she's using someone who loves her, while she has no feelings for him. I believe she does actually love Spike, the issue is not that a number has been done on her about sex, but about vampires. Giles, the Council and Angel have told her, since she was 15, that if you don't have a soul you cannot love. Now she's faced with a vampire who swears he loves her, and she believes loves her. I think the issue is that Buffy does't think she is allowed to love him, not that she doesn't. In Season 7 she goes on to ask 'Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?' because she's finally come to realise she can deny the teachings of the council and her world won't fall apart.
She seeing nuance that goes against their worldview that a souless being can choose to change. I do think though that his actions did reinforce the need for that though that he wasn't worth loving before that.
 
I believe Buffy when she says she doesn't love Spike. She admits she feels for him, she admits she likes him sometimes - but she doesn't love him because she doesn't trust him and she is proved right.
I also think she wouldn't be wrong to give herself a hard time over loving him - or even liking him. He is a serial killer who takes gleeful pleasure in murdering people and unlike Angel has not got the one thing that changes this enough for it to be OK. The chip is not a soul. We shouldn't forget any of this just because we love him.
She can be with him because he has changed enough (behaviour modification chip) to do some good and love her and she recognises and even grows to appreciate that. But she can't love him because his core nature as a vicious killer hasn't changed and she understands that. He doesn't understand that. But she does.
That's the core of their problem, there is a genuine block to her loving him that she knows is there. He doesn't know it's there and so assumes either she does love him or that the only reason she doesn't is because she won't let herself love him ... and she would be happier if she just gave into it, so it is his duty to make her love him.
The AR is when he realises what she knows all along and it horrifies him and he sets out to change. Once he has that soul he can see things even more clearly and understand what he really was and how Buffy really saw him and how getting a soul wasn't an easy fix, it came with a moment of clarity and a lot of pain and the understanding that everything he thought was true about them wasn't, and that in forcing his point he was crossing lines into abuse - which he hadn't meant to, but now can see and feels guilt over.
Conversely, the fact that he now has a soul is the thing that removes the stumbling block to Buffy loving him and so she is able to.

I know a lot of people have an issue with her falling in love with a man who attempted to rape her, and I definitely respect that viewpoint - but in world, he is a serial killer, she knows he's a serial killer this is why she doesn't love him. That he attacks her probably doesn't rock her world the way an attack from a human man that she actually trusted would. I also think that she suffered much more under Angelus than anything Spike ever did, so she if she can forgive Angel for Angelus' torment then forgiving Spike for Seeing Red would be easy.
I think the viewers can forgive Angelus more easily because he doesn't physically harm her, he psychologically torments her - whereas the AR is an incredibly graphic, almost gratuitously violent, shocking scene that really sticks with you. Viewers are reacting and judging based on what they saw, and that is fair enough. But Buffy is reacting based on what she felt - and nothing soulless Spike can do to her can ever hurt her the same way Angelus hurt her when she was still so young. So if Angel is lovable with a soul and not to be blamed for the pain he caused her while Angelus, then the same stands for Spike. She didn't used to be able to love him, but now she can and she lets herself.

Buffy had broken up with Spike and stuck to it but she's still sending out mixed messages in a sense she tells him to move on and then gets angry when he sleeps with someone else

I don't think Buffy being hurt about Spike and Anya is sending out mixed messages. She hasn't told him she no longer cares about him, she has said that using him is killing her and she can't do it any more. When he brings a date to the wedding she tells him it hurts - but it is still clearly over - they have a very sweet post break up moment. The message she is sending out is 'yes I feel for you, no we're not being together' - and it is the 'yes I feel for you' part that is hurt in Entropy.

He didn't go to Anya to hurt Buffy, he didn't want to hurt Buffy - and yet he did. He goes to her in Seeing Red to put that right and ends up hurting her again even worse. He cannot help but hurt her because he is evil. He doesn't want to hurt her because he loves her, but he cannot help himself. He goes there to try and mend things because he loves her, he ends up trying to rape her because he is evil. It isn't about what Buffy is doing or saying, it is about his fundamental nature being at war with his feelings and that always leading to pain and destruction. Until he changes his fundamental nature.
 
K
katmobile
Ok I can accept that
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