I think you missed the line where I said Spike has done nothing but good after getting a soul.
But he hasn't done 'nothing but good'.
-He comes back into Buffy's life after trying to force her back into a 'relationship' and tried to violently rape her.
-Doesn't even apologise to her for it
("I can't say I'm sorry")
-Taunts her about the rape on the balcony, and mocks her further about her touching him since the incident in SR.
-Consistently guilts her about the soul.
-Makes no effort when Giles is trying to help de-trigger him
-Taunts Robin over Nikki and wears her coat he took from her corpse
-Spies on Buffy when Angel returns. Then in jealousy, steps up to take the amulet (Faith could've been the champion to wear it, but he just assumes it's for him)
Spike's real redemption and acts of altruism starts over on AtS in s5.
Dawn made it clear she didn't want to have a relationship with Spike anymore after what he tried to to Buffy, and Spike respected that. If Spike didn't care about Dawn why would he maintain a relationship with her after Buffy died? Yeah you could say he promised Buffy he's protect her, but Buffy was dead so it wasn't like she'd know either way..
Again, Spike cares for Dawn via
extension of Buffy. So, once Buffy is back in s6 and he's back to stalker mode again, there's no interaction, no relationship, no 'caring' for her. It evaporates.
And then it extends into s7.
If Angel truly knew he couldn't give Buffy what she needed (and of course he knew that), he would have never gotten involved with her romantically in the first place, especially since his whole excuse was to "help" her. But Angel is selfish, so he did it anyways.
Not at the time - I don't think he was thinking about their potential life after 5 years. The realisation of this comes over time as shown through the seasons.
And Spike has never been selfish?
This is completely false. Had Buffy asked him for any help, he would have willingly done anything.
But...we see it happening in s6, so it's not 'false'. He doesn't patrol, he doesn't care for Dawn, doesn't help out the Scoobies. And he only helps Buffy because he is 'in love' with her. Of course he won't say no.
Not sure what to even say here? I've heard a lot of arguments against Spuffy, but honestly I think I've ever heard someone say he didn't understand her. Sure, Spike is a lot of things, but there is no argument he knows Buffy very well. Perhaps we have a different definition of what it means to "understand" someone? For me, it means knowing someone very well.
He might understand the darkness. But so does Angel. Both vampires, so they get it. He does not know Buffy 'very well'. Spike often projected, doesn't mean he knew her.
Actually, I think he's referring to him and Dru with this line, but whatever.
No need to get dismissive because we're having a discussion. That's your own belief, but their interaction in SR is about them. He's gone back to again HARASS Buffy after she ended things and to try and start up their 'relationship'.
Nah, I'm not buying this. If she genuinely thought Spike was a threat to Dawn, she would not have taken her over there. Period.
Spuffy logic. What was she going to say? "Hey, Spike just tried to violently rape me, can you stay with Anya instead?"
I agree it was stupid, but it's just another example of Spike's Get Out Of Jail Free Card, because Buffy loves him so he gets special treatment.
Buffy has not recovered from her trauma and not thinking clearly. Giles even points out this fact that because they were 'together' that her opinion is skewed.
Sure, you're forgetting that Spike is the truth sayer, and very perceptive.
When did William get this label of 'truth sayer?' Is he perceptive? Sometimes, sure. Most of the time though? Not. And not when it comes to Buffy.
He's not because he doesn't play well with others, we know this 😉
Interesting to note that big bombshell moments have come from Buffy when she confesses to people
outside of her circle and not her closest friends:
-Spike about being in heaven
-Tara when she's crying over having sex with Spike
-Her deep conversation with Holden in CWDP
It's still canon though, even if you have not read it, or wish it wasn't.
The point of my bringing up that the comics don't really belong in this conversation is that the comics don't have the following like the television series. For many, the series ended in 2003, and they don't follow the comics for whatever reason. That's why your point is irrelevant. Now if every single person who watched BTVS also had read the comics, that would be fair to include.
But you can continue to cling onto it and the relationship depicted in them, that's your right.
Nope, not what I said. Of course Buffy wasn't herself. Buffy used spike for sex to make herself feel better, but obviously it made her worse, thus why she ended it.
You said:
"With Spike, even at her worst, Buffy could be herself. Let it all hang out. All the baggage and the fear and the anger.."
That is not Buffy. Buffy compared to previous seasons is a different person.
Spike also brought out the worst in her, telling her she came back wrong (for starters).
By the way, calling what they did 'lovemaking' is....interesting
Having sex with Spike was not an escape, it was a distraction.
Escape from life, a distraction from her pain. Punishing herself. It can be more than one thing.
.
Part of growing up is realizing that sometimes we aren't who we say we are, or realizing that we want things we think we shouldn't. That's what's going on here.
That is absolutely not what is going on here. This isn't Buffy 'growing up'. She's in the middle of a personal crisis, dealing with a great deal of trauma. This is not Buffy. She's not herself. She's under a cloud.
Would Buffy have had sex with Spike had she not been depressed? Who knows.
You fully well know that Buffy would never have had sex with Spike had it not been for her depression and PTSD. Even the writers stated that was the only way they could get Spuffy to happen, was when she was at the lowest point. That says a lot.
But in the canon you choose to ignore, she gets back with him and she's certainly not depressed then so.
Again, the discussion for a number of people does not include the comics (you might 'choose to ignore' that point). You have to factor that in, I'm afraid.
What's so fascinating about this show, and especially this relationship, is how differently fans see things. I'd ask the same question to you: how do you NOT see it?
Please point out this intimacy. Aside from the obvious one in Empty Places where she asks him to stay, where's the rest? I could say you're seeing apparent closeness because you're a Spuffy. And calling it a 'relationship' is funny, by the way. They have no relationship. They don't bond, share laughs, go on dates. Spike even tells her he knows she doesn't love him (on more that one occasion, mind you).
The very evident push by writers to try and redeem Spike in the eyes of the audience after s6 and the obvious Spuffy push is obvious. It's akin to the forced relationship between Willow and Kennedy.
I didn't say that she didn't have intimacy with Angel. She lost her virginity to the man. Again, this is just my opinion she's better off with Spike than Angel.
Everyone on this board has the right to express their views. She's not better off with Spike. She will
never be better off with the guy who raped and abused her. Does that mean she's better off with Angel? Not necessarily either.
That comment might surprise you; I'm not a diehard Bangel (by the way if someone is,
that is perfectly cool too!). I have expressed a number of times on the board for my fondness of them, I think they're lovely together, whilst admitting their relationship isn't perfect and has problems. And by intimacy, it's not just sex. She and Angel shared a closeness beyond anything physical.
But the intentional knocking down of Angel to prop up Spike doesn't lend weight to debates. If anything, I'd like for Buffy to have a real shot with Angel, she never had that. And if they fizzle out, or find they're better off as friends, so be it.
Ultimately, Buffy should be with a human guy. Or woman! (Or single!). I don't buy the idea she needs a little 'monster in her man'. She's been in the dark, she needs the light.
Sure, but at least he wasn't stalking a 15 year old...
According to you, Spike was attracted to Buffy from when he first saw her. So following your logic, apparently it's OK for Spike to be sexually attracted to a 16 year old?
Anya was right, Spike always seems to have some kind of 'get out of jail free card'.
Oh, and last I checked, Angel wasn't breaking into Buffy's home and smelling her clothes, stealing her underwear and making a creepy shrine of her.
😉
Fair enough friend. Appreciate the discourse 😉
Likewise. I welcome our next debate, friend! It's all good here.
🙂
