the Spike/Buffy balcony sex scene

[NotASlayer]

One simple question. Can you, without the slightest reservation, state that you would still consider this not to be rape if it was not Spike in it but, for example, the Master?

 

[November]

One simple question. Can you, without the slightest reservation, state that you would still consider this not to be rape if it was not Spike in it but, for example, the Master?

And what if it was Riley?

Thats the difference. Shes not had days of sexcapades with the Master. Its totally different, Buffy has never engaged in a sexual relationship with the Master. She has already had quite a bit of sex with Spike by this stage.

 

[NotASlayer]

Except anyone who hesitates, even slightly, on that question does consider it rape; they have simply chosen not to do so because they consider Spike hot. The fact that she has had sex before with Spike is not relevant. It is his appearance that makes it acceptable.

 

[BaskingINBangel]

One simple question. Can you, without the slightest reservation, state that you would still consider this not to be rape if it was not Spike in it but, for example, the Master?

If the parameters are the exact same (Buffy is actively and willingly participating in a on/off sexual relationship with the Master) then for me it would be 100% not rape. It would be the same as this scene for me. To me her "don't" in this scene is not a firm no, as evidenced by her letting Spike continue.

 

[November]

Except anyone who hesitates, even slightly, on that question does consider it rape; they have simply chosen not to do so because they consider Spike hot. The fact that she has had sex before with Spike is not relevant. It is his appearance that makes it acceptable.

Nah, Angel is way hotter than Spike.

It's like you've missed the point of the scene completely. Why do you choose to do that?

Consent in an ongoing sexual relationship is not black and white. Verbal consent is not the only way. Especially in that position.

I use Riley as an example *in the context of their relationship, not this specific scene*

Do we see Buffy spread eagle on the bed yelling "Yes Riley, take me to the beat of your chirpy bird alarm" every single time they have sex? No. There are plenty of times they just go at it. In Hush they didnt have voices at all before they started sucking face. Does that mean neither gave consent? Words are not everything, particularly in ongoing relationships.

 

[thetopher]

It's not really about Buffy always having to give verbal consent every single time with anybody she's with, its that this time she says 'don't' and 'stop' and Spike's response is just 'make me'.

That's...messed up (at the very least) and could be seen as a valid withdrawn of consent. If a wife says to her husband 'not tonight, I'm not in the mood' and he persists then she has been violated and she has every right to be pissed.
The fact that Buffy is not angry at Spike after this scene is just more evidence that their relationship is messed up and needs to end, because it is 'killing her'. And yet many lament its ending, bizarrely.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

This is an interesting take, because, as far as I know, it's generally pretty much agreed upon within the fandom that he's penetrating her in this scene.

I didn't know that. In public? C'mon guys go to a supply closet or something. 😂

 

[November]

This is the scene.
My point still stands. Within the context of their relationship, Buffy has said yes in other ways, after her breathy "dont".

The whole point of the scene is to highlight the conflict Buffy faces, what society/friends/the world expects of her, and what Buffy feels and wants in that moment. Buffy started their relationship chasing feelings. In that moment, on the balcony, she is giving in to desire rather than "going through the motions" of life to the perfect sanitised script that everyone expects of her. This is something many women of this age or life stage face.

I have never been team Spuffy, always a hardcore Bangel. I am finding this discussion bit like when people study Christianity to disprove it, only to become Christian in the end. The depth and importance of Spuffy is underrated. Its worth discussion, but for this discussion I have made my point. There is nothing else I can say here, you either get it or you dont.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Any fan has the right to interpret that scene as rape, I just personally do not. The scene in "Seeing Red?" Definitely attempted rape. I just don't agree that this scene is such.

Of course I agree we wouldn't blame victims if they get raped, and of course it's still rape if the women does not give consent, even if she doesn't try to stop it beyond that.

Here's the thing, just because we don't have Buffy crying and screaming as in SR, it doesn't mean the balcony scene isn't rape either.

She said, "don't". So you say it's not rape, but then your statement says it is. Buffy didn't give consent.

I know it's probably difficult for you to accept it as you're a supporter of their relationship.

Nah, Angel is way hotter than Spike.

Both are very pleasant to look at, I think! 😉

It's like you've missed the point of the scene completely. Why do you choose to do that?

Consent in an ongoing sexual relationship is not black and white. Verbal consent is not the only way. Especially in that position.

I use Riley as an example *in the context of their relationship, not this specific scene*

Do we see Buffy spread eagle on the bed yelling "Yes Riley, take me to the beat of your chirpy bird alarm" every single time they have sex? No. There are plenty of times they just go at it. In Hush they didnt have voices at all before they started sucking face. Does that mean neither gave consent? Words are not everything, particularly in ongoing relationships.

You can hardly call what Buffy & Spike have as a 'relationship' though. Spike has touched Buffy on multiple occasions without her consent, so this isn't anything new.

For the record, if Angel, Riley or Parker did this on the balcony to Buffy, I'd be calling it out for what it is.

This is the scene.
My point still stands. Within the context of their relationship, Buffy has said yes in other ways, after her breathy "dont".

Sorry, "breathy" - like she's saying it in a 'sexy' manner? She's not. She's clearly upset. Go to 1:05/1:06 in the clip you posted above where she's about to cry.

Just because she made no attempt to throw Spike off her, it doesn't mean she 'wants it'. Victims of assault sometimes describe themselves as freezing. Like their brains cannot process what is happening.

Add to Buffy's anguish dealing with PTSD and depression.

The whole point of the scene is to highlight the conflict Buffy faces, what society/friends/the world expects of her, and what Buffy feels and wants in that moment. Buffy started their relationship chasing feelings. In that moment, on the balcony, she is giving in to desire rather than "going through the motions" of life to the perfect sanitised script that everyone expects of her. This is something many women of this age or life stage face.

You're of course allowed to interpret that scene as you wish.

To me, it is highlighting Buffy's continuing spiral, isolation and despair. Going back a little, and it's something I mentioned earlier in the thread, Buffy plasters on a fake smile for her friends, trying to keep up appearances, meanwhile she is still feeling distant and disassociated from the world and her friends, which is why she leaves them to get some space and be alone.

So we can assume Spike has been watching from a distance, and as he sees her ascending the stairs, he's ready to pounce and begin taunting her about 'belonging in the dark with me', and making her feel even more ashamed she's had sex with a soulless demon.

I have never been team Spuffy, always a hardcore Bangel. I am finding this discussion bit like when people study Christianity to disprove it, only to become Christian in the end. The depth and importance of Spuffy is underrated. Its worth discussion, but for this discussion I have made my point. There is nothing else I can say here, you either get it or you dont.

This isn't a Bangel/Spuffy debate. This thread is focusing on whether a young woman was raped in a club. And yes, she was.

Insert any other character from any series and place them in this scene. Super-strength or not. Or apply it to real life.
A woman you know is vulnerable tells you "don't" and a guy ignores the plea and continues to have sex with her. It's pretty clear what it is.

 

[NotASlayer]

Is consent implied in an existing relationship? In general, yes. Does this have any relevance here? No. As @thetopher says, it is not that Spike did not ask permission; it is that Buffy, on this specific occasion, refused it. Saying that non-consensual sex with an unwilling partner who clearly isn't enjoying it is rape isn't interpreting it as rape; it is the definition of rape.

If Buffy had not said no... well, it would be greyer. Given that she isn't enjoying it, a decent partner would have at least stopped to see what was wrong.

The thing, is the whole scene is not about sex. It is about power. Spike has the power to make his historical enemy do what he wants; she lacks the power, willpower in this case, to stop him. It is actually a very good depiction of abuse in, well, let's call it a relationship.

Paired with Seeing Red, it shows how Buffy has grown stronger mentally. In this, she possessed the physical strength but not the mental. In SR, it was the other. She lacked as much physical power but had gained enough mental power to put an end to it. As much as I hate this season for multiple reasons, these two episodes do perfectly show how Buffy has regained mental strength and willpower.

For the record, if Angel, Riley or Parker did this on the balcony to Buffy, I'd be calling it out for what it is.

Agreed.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Is consent implied in an existing relationship? In general, yes. Does this have any relevance here? No.

Agreed.

As @thetopher says, it is not that Spike did not ask permission; it is that Buffy, on this specific occasion, refused it. Saying that non-consensual sex with an unwilling partner who clearly isn't enjoying it is rape isn't interpreting it as rape; it is the definition of rape.

If Buffy had not said no... well, it would be greyer. Given that she isn't enjoying it, a decent partner would have at least stopped to see what was wrong.

The thing, is the whole scene is not about sex. It is about power. Spike has the power to make his historical enemy do what he wants; she lacks the power, willpower in this case, to stop him. It is actually a very good depiction of abuse in, well, let's call it a relationship.

Yes, 100%. It's about the power dynamic here.

Paired with Seeing Red, it shows how Buffy has grown stronger mentally. In this, she possessed the physical strength but not the mental. In SR, it was the other. She lacked as much physical power but had gained enough mental power to put an end to it. As much as I hate this season for multiple reasons, these two episodes do perfectly show how Buffy has regained mental strength and willpower.

Again, agreed! I think I tried to make this point earlier, but likely wrote some word-salad that made no sense (except to me!)

The contrast in these two scenes stands out. In DT - she's mentally weak but physically powerful. In SR (and now without Spike, and in a better place mentally/emotionally), she's physically weaker but mentally stronger, and seeing Spike clearly.

She now has the power to throw him off when she doesn't consent to sex.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

(This is something that came to me while writing) Also, what is consent? The human body goes through various changes in both body temperature and chemistry in anticipation of sexual activity. Can Spike sense those? He is a hyper advanced predator with supernatural abilities. He may even be able to read her thoughts? I mean, if I could read women to that degree, it would change the way I acted around them. I would probably dispense with the more useless small talk. From Spike's POV, Buffy was clearly lying to him, and the fact she did nothing to stop him validated what he originally thought. I mean, this is fantasy. I can barely tell if a woman doesn't want to kill me, let alone if he's open to sex. But I am not a vampire.

 

[thetopher]

Hmn, it's interesting to speculate but also its that kind of thinking can lead dangerously close to the 'if they are aroused/have an orgasm then it isn't rape no matter what they said' which is the thinking that goes towards all sorts of nasty assumptions.

Look, people don't have 100% control over their bodies at all times, there are many things we do that are involuntary or can be simply compelled to be through the actions of others (laughter is a nice clean example), but having the wherewithal to say 'actually I don't want this' because I'm sad/tired/married/closeted/find you morally repulsive' should be paramount when considering consent issues.

Put more simply, it is very easy for a gal to see that a guy is aroused- perhaps as easy as it is for Spike to 'smell Buffy's arousal' (yick) but if he can't necessarily control when he want to do it he can at least control who he want to do it with, or at all. Same with women.

 

[CardboardGhost]

Consent in an ongoing sexual relationship is not black and white. Verbal consent is not the only way. Especially in that position.

The point is not that Buffy didn't verbally say yes, but that she verbally said no. "Consent is implied" would mean that Spike knows how Buffy acts when she wants to have sex and acts once he has noticed those signals. What happened here is that he acts first and then ignores it when he is told to stop. Whether or not Buffy and Spike have enough of an emotional connection to be able to rely on those nonverbal signals in the first place is irrelevant.

You also mentioned a few times in this thread that you think "implied consent" is more of an age thing and that verbal consent is more important when you're young and generally inexperienced, which I don't like at all. It has to do with the closeness of the people involved, regardless of age. An older couple who have not been seeing each other long have not yet become comfortable enough around each other to act without clearer communication while two young people could have learned enough about each other to make it work. I don't think Spike and Buffy have that kind of closeness--they've had sex several times, Buffy has confided in him a few times, but I don't think that there's enough trust there to rely on being able to tell when they're on the same page without talking about it. Or, rather, there shouldn't be that kind of trust; many of their sexual encounters, especially the ones that happen on-screen, are initiated by Spike pushing against Buffy's boundaries in the first place. It's not always a mutual desire to have sex, just mutual attraction that he knows he can get her to give in to.

Hmn, it's interesting to speculate but also its that kind of thinking can lead dangerously close to the 'if they are aroused/have an orgasm then it isn't rape no matter what they said' which is the thinking that goes towards all sorts of nasty assumptions.

Look, people don't have 100% control over their bodies at all times, there are many things we do that are involuntary or can be simply compelled to be through the actions of others (laughter is a nice clean example), but having the wherewithal to say 'actually I don't want this' because I'm sad/tired/married/closeted/find you morally repulsive' should be paramount when considering consent issues.

This puts it very well. The idea that just because we know Buffy is attracted to Spike and enjoys having sex with him does not mean that she actually wants to act on that all of the time.

 

[silvermoon]

I thought that scene was very telling. Spike emotionally is fragile, but to me, sexually, he often seemed like the boss with her. She was very much attracted to him - when did it start? Who knows, but to me there was always some kind of tension between them, esp starting in Season Four in the famous getting married under a spell episode. Something Blue, I think. She outright flirts with him in that one and seems to enjoy it, not just to tease him.

The balcony scene was something he could have easily played out with Drusilla - to me in that moment Buffy was almost entirely with him in the way he craved, mind body and soul. But even in this scene, she is in conflict and it shows. sexually they are a lock. and i do believe she loved him and he loved her, but their relationship was so fraught with angst . on this board, people either love them or think Spike is forever the stalker/would be rapist w/o redemption .im on the spike redeemed himself team. it doesnt mean he wasnt a complete asshat with her, and she with him. in this scene, i think it was a dream of what could have been, but never would be. spike wanted a drusilla-esque relationship with buffy that she could never give him.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

It definitely isn't. The evidence of this comes in s7 when Spike returns and taunts Buffy about, "another round on the balcony".

I wonder who are the fans who view it from a 'fantasy' perspective? Spuffy fans? Because it makes it easier to tolerate that scene after ol' William treats her like crap?



Nope!



It can definitely be seen as a rape scene. He comes up behind her and starts taunting her.
She says, "don't" (and it's heartbreaking how weakly she says it) and then he says "stop me" and penetrates her without a second thought - pay attention to Buffy's face as she shudders because she's about to cry. It's gross.





You know very well that Buffy has the physical strength to throw Spike off her. The point here of the scene is Buffy being at her lowest. Mentally she does not have the strength and she's spiralling. The previous scene shows us she's still feeling dead and disconnected from the world with her fake smile and unable to relate to her friends. Spike has just taken advantage of her with his verbal taunts.

Spike knows she's weak and won't fight back. Fast forward to SR when she's broken things off with him, and has started to turn a corner. When Spike again attacks her and tries to rape her, this time he fails because mentally she's stronger (though physically weaker).

By the way, aside from feeling sorry for the actors having to act that out, I have to laugh at the logistics. We went from 'the zipper heard around the world' in Smashed to nothing. Did Spike head up on the balcony already unzipped and with his gear out?

Also, how convenient that no one's on the balcony!

Button fly. Some folks actually prefer them.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I thought that scene was very telling. Spike emotionally is fragile, but to me, sexually, he often seemed like the boss with her. She was very much attracted to him...

Buffy was attracted to Spike the first time she saw him, just like he was to her.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Buffy was attracted to Spike the first time she saw him, just like he was to her.

Yeah.....no.

 

[hoponlilmama]

@Joan the Vampire Slayer - of course we'll agree to disagree on the matter, but I'm curious - where is the evidence she was ever attracted to Spike when she first saw him?

No offense intended, but that's more of your view with Spuffy-coloured glasses on.

Maybe her signs of attraction is where she dropped an organ on his head in s2? 😉

 

[thrasherpix]

I think Spike was way too in love with Dru in season 2 to bother with Buffy. Even when he formed a temporary alliance with Buffy he thought Angelus was going to kill her and he shrugged it off while carrying Dru away for himself.

I also don't see Buffy having a crush on Spike in season 2 either.