the Spike/Buffy balcony sex scene

[hoponlilmama]

Did I say he came to the realization while he was doing it? No.

I didn't say you said that.

Right after she threw him off and he saw her face and heard what she said he realized.

But saying: "...positive statement on the issue of sexual assault in the end because spike realized how wrong he was" - is incorrect really. Mid attack and telling her (after declaring his love for her and telling he doesn't hurt her in previous episodes) he didn't come to any realisation.

Could he not see her face whilst he was on top of her trying to rip her robe off? When she's crying and screaming 'no' and 'stop'? Come on.

There's nothing 'positive' about it, in my opinion. And then having the writers have Buffy declare she 'loves' her rapist /attempted rapist and abuser is horrifying, after coddling him all season. That does not send a positive message.

People like to sing Spike's praises for being 'unique' and 'emotionally intelligent' - when it's clear he's nothing of the sort. Well, when it comes to taking advantage of someone who's weak, he excels.

Spike got a soul to get Buffy back. When she firmly closed the door on him ("Ask me again why I could never love you!"). Not to be a good man.

Why can’t we give him any grace in understanding this was a necessary evil in the progression of his character kind of like how Tara had to die to give rise to Dark Willow

I'd call Willow's situation regression, not progression. And Spike doesn't deserve to be cut any slack, sorry. That's fine if you think otherwise or want to give him grace. And then the use of the AR turns the spotlight on Spike and his recovery, his guilt (well, all of 5 minutes of it). No real focus on the victim. It's gross.

I just find it a disturbing thought that if Buffy hadn't stopped him he would've kept on going.

I am more sympathetic towards Spike and give him some grace when he lands over in LA on AtS. Because we begin to see some character growth. But prior? Heck no.

For a lot of Spuffy fans Buffy's no's feel performative.

Could it be because they don't care? It's difficult to accept that Spike isn't good for her? That he's making Buffy worse? Because they've been chomping at the bit to see them together that who cares how Buffy might actually be feeling?

I mean, they cheered her on when she first had sex with him in Smashed; when you strip the sweeping music away the reality is that was a girl feeling isolated, angry, suffering from PTSD and depression and she had sex with a soulless demon, that's how low she was.

But Spike knows what he's doing. Buffy's weak enough that even when she does say 'no' initially, he grounds her down because she'll cave. We see it happen multiple times. She'll tell him 'no', or to 'go away' and William isn't taking no for an answer until he gets what he wants.

Not surprising things escalated as they did on the balcony and in SR.

We've seen to many times when she goes from literally punching him to having sex with him. From saying she doesn't want to see him to going to him

Due to the fact of her emotional instability and the trauma she's gone through.

I don't believe Buffy actually does "convienient." Like if she did that, then she should have had an easier time shaking off Parker.

You can't really compare Buffy who has been through so much in s5, then coming back with depression and PTSD after her resurrection from the dead in s6 and having sex with a soulless demon, to Parker (a human with a soul - albeit a jerk too) and her emotional stability then.

Buffy s4 and Buffy s6 is like night and day.

Buffy used him to "feel" - so yes, he is convenient for when she has 'an itch that she can't scratch'.

The whole season is Buffy depressed and convinced there was something wrong with her and we know she's wrong about that, so why should we be taking her word for things

You can see why she thought so though - she's got Spike now able to hit her and telling her she came back "wrong" further adding to her despair. But there was something wrong with her (mentally and emotionally), which she acknowledged: "This isn't me. It can't be me".

We as the audience know this isn't Buffy. She's a shell of herself.

 

[silvermoon]

Yea there was definite heat between spike and the buffster when they first met. It was pretty obvious.

 

[NoShip]

Yea there was definite heat between spike and the buffster when they first met. It was pretty obvious.

The "heat" when Spike looked like he was going to rape Buffy on the dance floor in front of the entire Bronze? When Spike threatened to kill her? When they were fighting in the High School?

I'm with you that Spike wanted to fxck Buffy from the moment he first laid eyes on her, but, there is zero reciprocity from the Buffster.

 

[silvermoon]

The "heat" when Spike looked like he was going to rape Buffy on the dance floor in front of the entire Bronze? When Spike threatened to kill her? When they were fighting in the High School?

I'm with you that Spike wanted to fxck Buffy from the moment he first laid eyes on her, but, there is zero reciprocity from the Buffster.

If you say so, luv.

 

[BaskingINBangel]

I don't see how much firmer Buffy could be than saying "don't" as Spike pulls her dress up.

Also, Spike just dropped a huge threat: to tell Buffy's friends about what she lets him do to her. Threat comes just before "don't". That would give Buffy pause about resisting.

And, if Buffy got more physical about "don't" her worst nightmare would come true when her friends would see her entwined with Spike on the balcony of the Bronze.

Finally, many women freeze when sexually assaulted, especially when sexually assaulted by someone they know.

For me this is one of those types of threads that I usually avoid commenting on for reasons like this. It becomes redundant because we aren't going to see it from the others perspective as it involves personal real-world experiences, morality, and individual interpretation being implied to scenes from a fictional TV series. I just don't interact with media that seriously in most cases, but I respect that others do, and I firmly believe all media is open to personal interpretation.

The bottom line is that I just can't see this scene as rape. Is it abusive? Sure, Spike is a soulless demon after all, and I expect that behavior from him. I also hold Buffy accountable for her choice to use Spike to "feel again," and the fact that she seeks him out on more than one occasion is one of many indicators to me that she gets something out of the relationship. It's a toxic blurred line relationship, and that's the whole point. It's necessary for Buffy's growth, and when she has finally had enough, she ends it.

I don't think I have much more to add to the convo so I'm going to bow out from any further discussion in this thread. Cheers!

 

[garfan]

Spike got a soul to get Buffy back. When she firmly closed the door on him ("Ask me again why I could never love you!"). Not to be a good man.

As I said in another post, there's a group of fans that prefer that. Doing something for someone else is better than doing it for yourself

I'd call Willow's situation regression, not progression.

All of the characters situations are regression.

Could it be because they don't care? It's difficult to accept that Spike isn't good for her? That he's making Buffy worse? Because they've been chomping at the bit to see them together that who cares how Buffy might actually be feeling?

Buffy was about to dance herself to death before him.

I see more of the real her from previous seasons when she's with Spike than otherwise

I mean, they cheered her on when she first had sex with him in Smashed; when you strip the sweeping music away the reality is that was a girl feeling isolated, angry, suffering from PTSD and depression and she had sex with a soulless demon, that's how low she was.

But Spike knows what he's doing. Buffy's weak enough that even when she does say 'no' initially, he grounds her down because she'll cave. We see it happen multiple times. She'll tell him 'no', or to 'go away' and William isn't taking no for an answer until he gets what he wants.

okay, well the problem there is grinding her down in most instances feels about as difficult as Amy getting Willow to Rack in Wrecked.

You can't really compare Buffy who has been through so much in s5, then coming back with depression and PTSD after her resurrection from the dead in s6 and having sex with a soulless demon, to Parker (a human with a soul - albeit a jerk too) and her emotional stability then.

Buffy s4 and Buffy s6 is like night and day.

Buffy used him to "feel" - so yes, he is convenient for when she has 'an itch that she can't scratch'.


You can see why she thought so though - she's got Spike now able to hit her and telling her she came back "wrong" further adding to her despair. But there was something wrong with her (mentally and emotionally), which she acknowledged: "This isn't me. It can't be me".

We as the audience know this isn't Buffy. She's a shell of herself.

I mean, yes she is. But the problem is Buffy should feel. So... if he's what gets that going then that is a good thing

Basically the show never made me sympathize with Buffy. I felt bad she was in a bad place. But her heaven sucked. The idea she shouldn't be paid for slaying isn't one I agree with, especially since over on Angel around the same time, they were heavily into profit.

Basically I felt like she was embracing her misery most of the time and I hated that

 

[NoShip]

I see more of the real her from previous seasons when she's with Spike than otherwise

Just out of curiosity, when is Buffy ever "with" Spike in S2 or S4 or S5?

Post automatically merged: May 12, 2026

For me this is one of those types of threads that I usually avoid commenting on for reasons like this. It becomes redundant because we aren't going to see it from the others perspective as it involves personal real-world experiences, morality, and individual interpretation being implied to scenes from a fictional TV series.

So..... why did you come back?

Post automatically merged: May 12, 2026

@November - "Some discussions are like banging your head against a brick wall lol. Interpretation of the text casts a wide and twisted net."

And from one of those different interpretations, I completely agree.

 

[garfan]

Just out of curiosity, when is Buffy ever "with" Spike in S2 or S4 or S5?

Post automatically merged: May 12, 2026

okay, you fundamentally misunderstood what I was saying

 

[NoShip]

okay, you fundamentally misunderstood what I was saying

Probably. Did you mean romance or work?

 

[garfan]

Probably. Did you mean romance or work?

Neither. When I said with I basically just meant hanging around with

What I was saying was that Buffy around Spike in season 6 in most cases was more like Buffy in general in previous years. She has some life to her, some energy

Hell, she says it herself in her song when she says he makes her feel, and when she's drunk she complains how he's the only one he can stand to be around

 

[hoponlilmama]

For me this is one of those types of threads that I usually avoid commenting on for reasons like this. It becomes redundant because we aren't going to see it from the others perspective as it involves personal real-world experiences, morality, and individual interpretation being implied to scenes from a fictional TV series. I just don't interact with media that seriously in most cases, but I respect that others do, and I firmly believe all media is open to personal interpretation.

And I guess that's the point of a message board. If we all agreed, what's the point?
You also have to take into account new fans - or in my case, an 'OG' fan, but I never really engaged in discussions about BTVS/AtS during when the show aired, and after when they went off air.

That's why I joined the forum 3 years ago (wow time flies!). To talk about the show, to get and read different perspectives, to engage in debate/discussion, and to hang around with some cool people.

The bottom line is that I just can't see this scene as rape. Is it abusive? Sure, Spike is a soulless demon after all, and I expect that behavior from him. I also hold Buffy accountable for her choice to use Spike to "feel again," and the fact that she seeks him out on more than one occasion is one of many indicators to me that she gets something out of the relationship. It's a toxic blurred line relationship, and that's the whole point. It's necessary for Buffy's growth, and when she has finally had enough, she ends it.

I don't think I have much more to add to the convo so I'm going to bow out from any further discussion in this thread. Cheers!

You might not see it as rape, but others do. I certainly do. One can also take note about who actually views it as rape or not. Spuffies label the scene 'hot'. That says a lot.

I give Buffy some grace here - yes she used Spike to 'feel', but this is her at rock bottom. She needed Giles, a mountain of therapy, the support of her friends, and to not be around Spike. She was internalising and dealing with all of this on her own. So she deserves some slack.

Post automatically merged: May 13, 2026

As I said in another post, there's a group of fans that prefer that. Doing something for someone else is better than doing it for yourself

As long as it justifies Spuffy for them, I guess.

All of the characters situations are regression.

We're not talking about the rest of the characters here.

Buffy was about to dance herself to death before him.

I'll pay that one. But one instance doesn't wipe away the rest of his abusiveness towards her. One good deed doesn't tip the scales.

But hey: "I hope she fries, I'm free if that b**ch dies!" isn't something to ignore either.

I see more of the real her from previous seasons when she's with Spike than otherwise

This makes no sense.

okay, well the problem there is grinding her down in most instances feels about as difficult as Amy getting Willow to Rack in Wrecked.

And highlighting how weak she is.

I mean, yes she is. But the problem is Buffy should feel. So... if he's what gets that going then that is a good thing

It wasn't healthy, so no. And she's ashamed of it. She knows she's not herself. And the 'feeling' was only temporary for her. Like an addict chasing their next high. That's not a healthy way of functioning/living, and I'm sure you're aware of that.

Basically the show never made me sympathize with Buffy. I felt bad she was in a bad place. But her heaven sucked. The idea she shouldn't be paid for slaying isn't one I agree with, especially since over on Angel around the same time, they were heavily into profit.

Basically I felt like she was embracing her misery most of the time and I hated that

Fair enough.

 

[garfan]

We're not talking about the rest of the characters here.


I'll pay that one. But one instance doesn't wipe away the rest of his abusiveness towards her. One good deed doesn't tip the scales.

That comment wasn't really about Spike saving Buffy though it was about Buffy. Buffy on her own wasn't wanting to be alive. Buffy's friends weren't enough to get her there. Spike someone how made her okay with being alive

And your reference to drugs made the perfect way to give my perspective. Spike was Buffy's antidepressant

And people on meds for your mind, antidepressants or antipsychotics often hate the side effects. They take my creativity, they make me shake, they make me drool and so on. Spike made Buffy feel less moral and her beating him up and so was deciding she'd stop taking it

 

[hoponlilmama]

@Joan the Vampire Slayer You could but the sexual tension with a knife 😉

Again, what 'sexual tension'? Yeah, I'm sure Buffy was mega attracted to the vampire who just told her he's going to kill her. Come on now.

And you always hurt the ones you love 😉

Yes, due to Spike and his obsession he did rape Buffy and hurt her. I'm glad you agree.

 

[machinewolfhear]

this i hated about season 6, spike used buffy but also the way around, i watched these with cringe, i like spike but this was yikes

 

[Btvs fan]

The scene is more akin to a type of dark sexual fantasy than a rape scene, at least, according to a lot of booktok fiction reviewers/writers.

In actuality It's a terribly cringey scene if you actually focus on the dialogue, the mood lighting, music and the faux depth. It's one of the worst parts of the worst episode of BtVS. Depending on who you talk to it's the scene that killed the show, SMG was that unhappy with it.


Edit: I guess for those who are seriously intent and consistent on consent, agency and power dynamics at all times then its absolutely a rape scene.

Steven Deknight said its not even in the script and that Joss Whedon added it in last minute

Its not the worst episode of Buffy. Both Normal Again and Seeing Red are worse as is Wrecked/Gone and DMP

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Balcony: Yeah, it's not my favorite scene either, but it does do a good job of showing the destructive nature of Spuffy and demonstrating Buffy's alienation from her friends. There's some story purpose that exists apart from seeing Actors with less clothing, or pure shock value. It's also fairly tame for a sex scene, and it's unlikely anyone went to therapy because of it. Also, Sarah would have done "Cruel Intentions" by this point, so the bar was kinda high.