Unforgivable Plot Lines

[telperion66]

I just got done re-watching 'Awakening' from Angel Season 4.

After they kill the beast in the fantasy, they had such an amazing opportunity to refresh the season which would have given the show a whole new lease of life.

Instead, they say, 'hey, that was all a dream, the beast is still alive and Angelus is back'.

Now, I get the temptation for the writers wanting to see Angelus again, but the vibe/narrative of the rest of the series (4+5) after they bring him back is just so awful and the stories are terrible, such as Jasmine.

They had such a perfect opportunity to make season 4 truly something special if the fantasy had just been real and Angel had not slept with Cordy.

Unforgivable in my eyes.

Any other 'unforgivable' plot lines in either Buffy or Angel that you would have liked to have changed to make the show/s better??

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[Kendar]

Honestly, to me I don't like the Angelus part of season 4. Why? Because he's effectively neutered.

Note that he kills no humans at all during that time. He kills the Beast, drinks from already dead Lilah, and beats up a demon or two. it always seemed apparent to me that he could have killed Faith if he really wanted to but didn't.

I actually spent most of the time assuming he was running a really deep con.

 

[Btvs fan]

Angelus was fine in the cage as this Hannibal Lector style character. But out the cage ... God thats a whole different story

 

[Cohen]

I actually spent most of the time assuming he was running a really deep con.

This would have been a better plot.

 

[famicommander]

Cordelia's entire season 4. The character and the actress both deserved better.

Connor's entire story arc after the moment he is born (I like the stuff up until his birth). Unlike Dawn, he never really grows into a likeable and multidimensional character. Even when he has multiple personalities written on top of each other he's still bland and annoying.

The original "bury your gays" with Larry getting wrecked by the Mayor and then Tara forgiving Willow's insane abuse and then getting shot for it.

Faith's whole redemption arc is pretty annoying. Once she decides to stop murdering people everyone pretty much just lets her off the hook. They don't ever really deal with the fact that she helped a snake monster murder a bunch of children, murdered an innocent professor, murdered an innocent demon that was trying to stop the Ascension, murdered that not-so-innocent dude that brought the box, sexually assaulted Xander, bodyjacked Buffy, then used Buffy's body to rape Riley. If anything the shows seem to make her accidental killing of the evil mayor's assistant the actual crux of all the other characters' attitude towards her and it's baffling. I really like Faith, but they made her fall too far to make it believable that she could be redeemed and there's really no reason the audience should want to see her redeemed. She's a straight up serial sexual predator and serial murderer. It's not like she has the soul/no soul/brainwashing excuses; she made a series of voluntary choices to end up where she ended up. She probably should have died in the final battle like Anya did. Anya was also beyond redemption, despite my absolute love of the actress and the character.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

IMHO, Season 4 of Angel is like a telenovela or soap opera, it's only intended to be viewed once. And that first run was awesome. But on repeat viewing, there's no reward for that.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Awakening; I do like the episode. I get your point, but I like when magic is subtle and "clouding men's minds," instead of asserting how powerful you are, and breaking the curse by strength of will. It seems more wise that way.

 

[Btvs fan]

IMHO, Season 4 of Angel is like a telenovela or soap opera, it's only intended to be viewed once. And that first run was awesome. But on repeat viewing, there's no reward for that.

Including the Faith episodes and S4 finale ?

 

[hoponlilmama]

Cordelia's entire season 4. The character and the actress both deserved better.

Connor's entire story arc after the moment he is born (I like the stuff up until his birth). Unlike Dawn, he never really grows into a likeable and multidimensional character. Even when he has multiple personalities written on top of each other he's still bland and annoying.

The original "bury your gays" with Larry getting wrecked by the Mayor and then Tara forgiving Willow's insane abuse and then getting shot for it.

Faith's whole redemption arc is pretty annoying. Once she decides to stop murdering people everyone pretty much just lets her off the hook. They don't ever really deal with the fact that she helped a snake monster murder a bunch of children, murdered an innocent professor, murdered an innocent demon that was trying to stop the Ascension, murdered that not-so-innocent dude that brought the box, sexually assaulted Xander, bodyjacked Buffy, then used Buffy's body to rape Riley. If anything the shows seem to make her accidental killing of the evil mayor's assistant the actual crux of all the other characters' attitude towards her and it's baffling. I really like Faith, but they made her fall too far to make it believable that she could be redeemed and there's really no reason the audience should want to see her redeemed. She's a straight up serial sexual predator and serial murderer. It's not like she has the soul/no soul/brainwashing excuses; she made a series of voluntary choices to end up where she ended up. She probably should have died in the final battle like Anya did. Anya was also beyond redemption, despite my absolute love of the actress and the character.

Add Faith to the list of people who did some seriously bad things and it's, "Oops, oh well!"

If anything, Faith and Spike (and to some degree Angel) get the side-eye from the Scoobies, but those in the inner circle tend to be forgiven pretty easily - Willow's world-ending I'd say outranks them all. She was sent away for a while and all was pretty much forgotten by the others by the time she got back.

 

[Taake]

The Trio. It could have worked if it was an episode or two, but a whole season arc (more or less), it was scattered and lazy and didn't seem to have a clear direction or plan behind it.

The Trigger - it's a bit too "we want the character to be good to be a love interest, buuuuut he is much more interesting as a bad guy soooo he's good, he's bad, but not good due to his own reason so bad, but oh now not really bad cause of his fault so good really. So trust him, but don't trust him. But also trust, but also don't... maybe he can be insane for a bit...we really want the character to be whatever we want him to be depending on the episode but please don't let this color your feelings about him."

As an episode plot - I think Where the wild things are is pretty unforgivable. Children were so abused in this house by a crazy old bat in the 1950's that now the house is teeming with sexual tension that Buffy and Riley feed with obsessive love making and it nearly kills them. What? What were the writers on when they came up with this.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: A4 Faith & Jasmine; Yes, because the best part of this season was seeing all this crazy stuff happening, and speculating how it was going to turn out. It was a massive mystery box. One you understand that it's all a distraction, it loses all rewatch value. I'm not denying that individual moments are fun and rewatchable, but as a story? It doesn't matter. And I like season 4, but it's a lot more like Lost than other seasons of Angel.

 

[hoponlilmama]

The Trio. It could have worked if it was an episode or two, but a whole season arc (more or less), it was scattered and lazy and didn't seem to have a clear direction or plan behind it.

The Trigger - it's a bit too "we want the character to be good to be a love interest, buuuuut he is much more interesting as a bad guy soooo he's good, he's bad, but not good due to his own reason so bad, but oh now not really bad cause of his fault so good really. So trust him, but don't trust him. But also trust, but also don't... maybe he can be insane for a bit...we really want the character to be whatever we want him to be depending on the episode but please don't let this color your feelings about him."

As an episode plot - I think Where the wild things are is pretty unforgivable. Children were so abused in this house by a crazy old bat in the 1950's that now the house is teeming with sexual tension that Buffy and Riley feed with obsessive love making and it nearly kills them. What? What were the writers on when they came up with this.

I'm just re-reading your post and your comment on The Trio got me thinking - what if all three of them were as sinister as Warren?

Andrew is more or less a dopey sidekick, Jonathan is semi-serious (we do see his conscience emerge and beginning to question things with Katrina). If Andrew and Jonathan were as evil as Warren, do you think it would've made more of an impact?

As Buffy said, they're mostly a "pain in her a**" (and the audience's too, let's be honest!) so perhaps using them less throughout the season, but them having a clearer goal and be viewed as a serious threat, would that have changed things?

 

[Taake]

I'm just re-reading your post and your comment on The Trio got me thinking - what if all three of them were as sinister as Warren?

Andrew is more or less a dopey sidekick, Jonathan is semi-serious (we do see his conscience emerge and beginning to question things with Katrina). If Andrew and Jonathan were as evil as Warren, do you think it would've made more of an impact?

As Buffy said, they're mostly a "pain in her a**" (and the audience's too, let's be honest!) so perhaps using them less throughout the season, but them having a clearer goal and be viewed as a serious threat, would that have changed things?

I definitively think that would have helped

As it is, they’re annoying and their internal conflicts pretty meh.

If they had been more menacing separately it would have been better and also more interesting once Warren is gone. Buffy and Co protecting the dopey sidekicks feels like a given, but if they too were sinister it would be more morally grey

 

[thetopher]

I'd put Andrew much nearer to Warren the the writers ever did. He wanted Warren to beat Buffy to death, held a blade to Xander's throat and summoned a demon that almost drove Buffy crazed enough to kill off her entire family. That's not nothing.


Also Faith voluntarily faced the consequences of her own actions, for years, and was still punished at the end of it; there was no sweeping, her crimes are thrown in her face by both Wesley and Buffy in the midst of apocalypse, which makes good drama if nothing else. That never happened to Willow, Spike, Anya, Andrew. Hell, by this point Xander got away with being responsible for the death of innocents with...a joke about becoming a demon-bride? Yeah, okay.


As for 'unforgivable' storylines...well, there are individual episodes during the first 5 seasons that I would delete; mostly MotW ones that could've been done better, nothing big.
With S6 I would've deleted the Trio and have Ethan Rayne there instead, wishing vengeance on Buffy for having him locked up without due process for years; maybe you could've still had Amy and Jonathan as his magic disciples targeting Willow because of her attraction to dark magicks/power. But I really just didn't like the inclusion of robots, gadgets, robots doubles, freeze rays and other goofy science-fiction nonsense in my supernatural drama.

With S7 I'm just against the way that Spuffy was retroactively portrayed as 'mostly Buffy's fault except for the sexual assault oppsie at the end that I got a soul for you for...' I would've been overjoyed for Spike NOT to go and on about his feelings for Buffy mere months after a traumatic rape attempt. In fact 'Touched' would've been the one and only time he would've openly expressed his feelings for her.
I would've committed more to the Potentials and dropped the Spike-trigger plot; there is too much cognitive dissonance between 'Spike is my strongest confidante' and also 'Spike can be turned by The First into a serial killer any time it wants'. Just writing that its clear how breathtakingly dumb that whole subplot was.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yeah, they had a male version of the Craft, they botched it.

 

[famicommander]

Add Faith to the list of people who did some seriously bad things and it's, "Oops, oh well!"

If anything, Faith and Spike (and to some degree Angel) get the side-eye from the Scoobies, but those in the inner circle tend to be forgiven pretty easily - Willow's world-ending I'd say outranks them all. She was sent away for a while and all was pretty much forgotten by the others by the time she got back.

Willow didn't actually murder any innocents, though. She turned back before she went through with it and ended up only killing a serial killer (Warren) and a creepy magical serial rapist (Rack). And then Joss retconned both of those killings in the comics anyway (dumb decision on his part).

Faith, on the other hand, knowingly contributed to the Mayor's apocalypse that ended up killing dozens of kids (including Harmony and Larry). She tried to murder Angel and Buffy. She raped Riley, bodyjacked Buffy, sexually assaulted Xander. She murdered the professor, the box of Gavron guy, and the demon with the Books of Ascension. She kidnapped Willow, tortured Wesley.

I don't think there's really any contest. Faith did far, far worse than Willow ever did. Willow almost did much worse than Faith but almost doing crimes and doing crimes are not equivalent.

 

[thetopher]

Wait, wait, wait, if we say Faith almost killed Buffy (she didn't btw) and Angel by that logic then Willow tried to kill Buffy, Dawn, Xander (multiple times) and brutally tortured Giles for fun. Plus almost single-handedly trying to destroy the world.

In the end at least Faith at least helped stop the Mayor (shared dream) in his hundred year plus scheme to become a pure demon which was well under the way before she even showed. She certainly isn't culpable for the Ascension.

I would still say that Faith did worse, but she also paid a higher price when she was, in fact, a screwed up teenager. Willow was a grown-ass adult who never saw any negative consequences for all the pain she inflicted.

 

[garfan]

Wait, wait, wait, if we say Faith almost killed Buffy (she didn't btw) and Angel by that logic then Willow tried to kill Buffy, Dawn, Xander (multiple times) and brutally tortured Giles for fun. Plus almost single-handedly trying to destroy the world.

In the end at least Faith at least helped stop the Mayor (shared dream) in his hundred year plus scheme to become a pure demon which was well under the way before she even showed. She certainly isn't culpable for the Ascension.

I would still say that Faith did worse, but she also paid a higher price when she was, in fact, a screwed up teenager. Willow was a grown-ass adult who never saw any negative consequences for all the pain she inflicted.

the Scoobies didn't get to experience that shared dream. And if you look at the way Buffy talks about Faith she is relatively forgiving in season 4 until the body stealing.

Faith also captured Willow for the Mayor when the Scoobies had the Box of Gavrock. Without that hostage situation the Scoobies are able to stop it cold before it gets to the big day, so she gains some culpability for the Ascension

 

[thetopher]

the Scoobies didn't get to experience that shared dream. And if you look at the way Buffy talks about Faith she is relatively forgiving in season 4 until the body stealing.

We're not talking about Buffy and the Scoobies personal experiences, we're talking about general moral culpability as judged by the audience. By this point Anya, Spike, Andrew and Xander have all caused the death of innocents, Willow was an actual Big Bad, and they all happily rub along together through S7 and then 'uh, oh, Faith rolls up' and its a problem?
Sure, from Buffy's pov absolutely I get it but audience-wise? She surrounded by worse individuals who've done much less to deserve a second chance.

Faith also captured Willow for the Mayor when the Scoobies had the Box of Gavrock. Without that hostage situation the Scoobies are able to stop it cold before it gets to the big day, so she gains some culpability for the Ascension

Saying Faith has moral culpability for the people who died in the ascension because she was errand girl is effing stupid. She gave Buffy a clue to defeating him/getting him to where she needed him to be.
With the line of reasoning 'they interfered and led the bad guy to commit evil deeds in the future and that's on them' then Buffy is responsible for trigger!Spike's massacring of the innocent, she could've stopped him years ago and saved those lives.

 

[NotASlayer]

With the line of reasoning 'they interfered and led the bad guy to commit evil deeds in the future and that's on them' then Buffy is responsible for trigger!Spike's massacring of the innocent, she could've stopped him years ago and saved those lives.

And so many more than that. By not killing Angelus in S2 when she had the chance, Jenny and who knows how many others died. This also led to Buffy making a bargain with Spike to combat Angelus. Putting aside the ethics of making an agreement with a soulless monster, she didn't do anything even after Spike failed to keep up the terms of the bargain by leaving before Angelus was defeated and by coming back. This puts Buffy, directly or indirectly, responsible for the everyone Spike killed and everyone Drusilla and Darla killed between seasons 2 and 7, plus all the people who died thanks to Spike conspiring with Adam (and "they would probably have died anyway" does not negate the fact that Spike actively conspired in their deaths) and even if that's ignored, letting Spike, Drusilla and Harmony go in S5 resulted in yet more deaths. In terms of culpability for letting bad guys go to cause more deaths, Buffy has everyone beat. It is probably also worth noting that as soon as Anyanka 2.0 started granting fatal wishes, Buffy turned on her, whilst she actively refused to stop Spike who was doing the same, and even made it easier for him to do so by removing the chip.