Was 'Amends' The best episode ever of Buffy?

telperion66

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Its got an Angel-centric theme in season 3, which is always a treat.

Its got the climactic finale of Angel's personal battle with mortality and everything he did as Angelus contrasted to Buffy's love for him and the fact that she doesn't want him to kill himself.

It's got the amazing twist at the end with the eternal night and snowfall.

Its got great and poignant cameos from all of the gang, including Faith, Xander and Giles.

Giles' reaction to Angel asking him for help after being tortured by him in season 2 is just great.

Just thought there is a case for this being the most well-rounded, watchable episode ever in terms of everything it says, and it being the best....??

Thoughts? Comments?

PS. My favourite line from the episode is - 'Life is fighting. Its hard and its painful and its everyday, But we can face it together' (Buffy to Angel at the end..)
 
No. I dislike all the episodes where they try to play it both ways with regard to whether or not Angel/good Spike are responsible for the deeds of Angelus/evil Spike. It's bad, lazy writing to try to have your cake and eat it too. I understand Angel's personal internal struggle with it because he has memories of doing those things and is being manipulated by the First but the behavior of the other characters with respect to that always comes off as contrived drama and I hate that.

The ending also comes dangerously close to mirroring real life situations where someone threatens suicide in order to keep someone else in a relationship. It's gross to put the responsibility for Angel's will to live on Buffy's shoulders.
 
It's certainly one of the most important episodes, as it introduces the First Evil and his mythology, the Champion Angel, the first hint of a "Higher Power," that may or may not be God/eudaemons/Jasmine and offers the only answer of whom released Angel from hell. Granted, most of those elements don't really pay off, but still.
 
It's a good episode with many themes that resonate with Joss and would be explored later over on Angel's own show. Angel has always been way more consistent in the way he views his past misdeeds but this is the first episode where we see these experiences from his point of view.

Honestly I prefer much of the non-Bangel stuff in this episode. Buffy and her Mom, Angel coming to see Giles, Willow and Oz, Buffy and Faith. All those interactions are more enjoyable than the overwrought romance.


The ending also comes dangerously close to mirroring real life situations where someone threatens suicide in order to keep someone else in a relationship.

In what way does it comes dangerously close?

It's gross to put the responsibility for Angel's will to live on Buffy's shoulders.

Except that he never does that. And quite frankly its such a baffling take that I've never, ever seen expressed anywhere else.
 
Personally I don't think that it's the best episode. But I like the points you made, towards it being an important episode. Personally it's maybe a top 20 episode for me. I do think that "Amends" is a sort of prequel episode to the Angel show.

PS. My favourite line from the episode is - 'Life is fighting. Its hard and its painful and its everyday, But we can face it together' (Buffy to Angel at the end..)
I really like this as a theme. Reminds me of the for the Marvel movie Thunderbolts, one of the reasons why I really like that movie.
 
I like some aspects of the episode, but overall I don’t think it’s the BEST.

I would reserve that for Surprise/Innocence, Passion, Blood Ties, or The Gift. Each of those episodes balance important aspects of the show—drama, comedy, the supernatural, and the relationships of the main characters.

Amends as an Angel-centric Buffy episode worked in diving into his past, and playing with the themes of the season. But the First as introduced here was weak. The mythology was primarily changed upon its return in season 7. And the idea of Angel wanting to commit suicide due to Angelus’ actions doesn’t really make sense to me. We’ve established they are two separate characters, and so while I understand Angel’s desire to atone for Angelus’ deeds while the demon inhabited his body, I think it’s a bit Of a reach for the “going out at sunrise” part of this episode. However, plot wise I understand the significance of him being saved by a Higher Power, and I agree with others that it seems to work more as a prequel to Angel’s own show.

I don’t think it really showcases the best of Buffy as a show and concept though.
 
But Angel's not lying to Buffy, he's being mindf***** by a malicious higher being who is extremely convincing and has intimate knowledge of every wicked act that Liam/Angelus/Angel has ever done. This is Buffy being a hero, trying to save a broken man. This is entirely Jasmine, I mean First Evil who caused this.
 
Having read some of these comments, its dawned on me that perhaps I like this one a lot because I am a huge Angel season 1-4 fan, and you're right this episode kind of foreshadows a lot of that show's themes and values.

Just in terms of re-watchability though, its very forgiving. Being one of those guys that's watched endless number of re-watches, this one always has a certain 'freshness' and timeless quality to it.

Also, it has nothing of what I dislike about Buffy as a show, all of the shallow-ness, this one kinda keeps it all deep....
 
It might not be the best episode of Season 3 but it certainly is imo one of the best episodes of Season 3.
For instance : Angel thought that killing himself was being strong but he learns from Buffy that fighting is Angel being strong, that he can make amends; do real good.

That Angel would rather die than hurt Buffy.

Angel learns he belongs in the world.

Angel’s undead life is worth saving since the clouds block the sun and it snows further protecting Angel.

Angel is going to start fighting like we see the rest of the season.

That Angel can be forgiven and that Buffy has forgiven him.

That he is going to do good and help people like he does on Angel The Series
 
For me, this was one of the least memorable episodes of the first five seasons; I can remember more about episodes that are supposed to be terrible than this one. It probably isn't helped that it has the most forgettably boring MotW of the entire series, which I don't remember a single thing about. Or even that it was in it, it was so uninteresting.

For Angel itself, I would say that it is the first two seasons that I like the most.
 
Oh, so tough thinking of what might be the best episode of a series.

I like Amends and think it explores a lot of themes and ideas well, as well as set up stuff for Angel leaving. But I am also not sure I would call it the best of Buffy. I could say that it is probably high on my list, but not quite top billing.

It also makes me think of what makes an episode good. Like Amends I enjoy watching and is important for the characters, but I would say e.g. The Body is more impactful and important for me as a viewer. So yeah, I don't know. But I do love Amends and the things you high lighted about it.
 
Imo, on first watch it's one of the weakest in S3, which, admittedly, didn't really have a bad episode.

The scene between Buffy and Angel is a little cheesy and overly melodramatic. Which, to be fair game, the writers admitted Angel could be quite melodramatic (in the episode 'Billy' of his own show). On first watch, I didn't care much for his character at that point, so having an episode centered mostly on him was a let down. The rest of the cast had some nice moments, but nothing memorable. It's too bad, because Buffy didn't really have any other episodes centered around Christmas. 🙁

In retrospect, after having finished both shows, the presence of the First Evil and the possibility of Jasmine being involved in the events of the episode makes it more intriguing and fun, but on first watch the 'villain' comes out of the blue and is never mentioned again for a long time.
 
but on first watch the 'villain' comes out of the blue and is never mentioned again for a long time.

I have a suspicion that for the final villain they were so out of ideas - especially given the writing of the last two seasons showed this, using rejected teen soap opera scripts for S6 and recycling scripts for S7 - that they just looked for a surviving MotW to use, and the First Yawn was one of the few survivors. I don't think it was ever planned to be used again.
 
I didn't like this episode at all. I can admit I'm incredibly biased, though. I really hate Angel as a character. I like his role in the narrative in season 2 but I find him insufferable and honestly was really disappointed that he came back, especially as quickly as he did, so any episode about Angel and his problems is never going to be a favorite of mine unless it's just absolutely spectacular, which I didn't think this one was.

That said, my main criticism of this episode is that it feels for most of the episode that Angel suddenly has guilt when... he's supposed to have felt guilt the whole time... that's what makes it a curse. I couldn't figure out what made it different now and he was so haunted by his past actions that he was hallucinating and unable to interact normally with others. Of course at the end we learn he was being tormented by the First Evil and a lot of the self-hatred and suicidal thoughts weren't really Angel, but because this is revealed so late in the episode, and you can watch the entire thing up to that point assuming that he just genuinely believes this, it feels like I'm supposed to care that for whatever reason his guilt has gotten worse. I wonder if I would've liked it more if this wasn't the Christmas episode and if it took place later on, maybe around the anniversary of Jenny's death? Maybe it would've felt more natural for him to be fixated on her to the point of "hallucinating" her (and the reveal that it really is something attacking him would still work). I don't know. I also personally don't like the end with Buffy having to talk him out of suicide, partially because I didn't get the feeling that she actually managed to convince him in that moment, it's just that the surprise snowfall made it inconvenient for him to kill himself then and this gave him more time to think it through. It's a really awkward scene because he seems so firm in this decision and then can't follow through rather than Buffy actually getting through to him. She has to try to beg him not to kill himself and then there's the possibility that what she said wouldn't have helped at all and it was other circumstances that stopped him. That's just my opinion, though. I know it's meant to be interpreted as him realizing how much Buffy loves him etc etc. But that's not much better... Buffy shouldn't be in a position where, if he did kill himself, she would feel like it was her fault for not making it clear enough how she feels about him. No one should have to know they are The Reason their partner didn't kill themselves, because that's a huge emotional burden to have to bear, and God knows Buffy has enough of those.

The acting is great, though. Everyone's performances are great, and I especially loved the scenes with Oz and Willow (I love Oz and Willow) and also when Angel goes to Giles's house. The tension there is really good and I kind of wish we had more Giles and Angel interactions. The scenes with the snow are all beautiful. I like flashbacks to Angel in the past because I think they're interesting and do a lot to develop the character (which is the other thing: Angel and Angelus are supposed to be completely separate, but I think that takes a lot away from the flashbacks... why should I care if that wasn't really him?). But I think the pacing and the build up to the First Evil could have been better, and, again, I don't tend to like episodes that are entirely about making the audience feel sympathetic to Angel. It's a perfectly fine episode, but I personally didn't like. Even beyond my personal dislike of it, I think other episodes have a stronger villain with a more satisfying conclusion, and it being the Christmas episode means it's supposed to be elevated and special, which I don't feel like it is, other than the snow at the end. I definitely wouldn't consider it the best episode of Buffy. I haven't even finished season 3 yet and would feel confident saying it isn't the best episode of the season (my favorites have been "Band Candy" and "Lover's Walk," but honestly every episode this season has been really good and it's hard to pick between them).
 
Tome
Tome
Oh my god! You are going through your first watch. I'm jealous! Enjoy and be very careful around here because there are a lot of spoilers, including in this thread.
That said, my main criticism of this episode is that it feels for most of the episode that Angel suddenly has guilt when... he's supposed to have felt guilt the whole time... that's what makes it a curse. I couldn't figure out what made it different now and he was so haunted by his past actions that he was hallucinating and unable to interact normally with others. Of course at the end we learn he was being tormented by the First Evil and a lot of the self-hatred and suicidal thoughts weren't really Angel, but because this is revealed so late in the episode, and you can watch the entire thing up to that point assuming that he just genuinely believes this, it feels like I'm supposed to care that for whatever reason his guilt has gotten worse.

Firstly, this is really the first episode which delves into Angel's POV in any real depth so the 'suddenly feeling more guilty' is a bit of a narrative trick. Perhaps Angel always feels this way, kinda, but it was always from Buffy's pov. Why is he so mopey? Here's an insight. So from his perspective ts going to be more prominent. But a few other things to consider:

- Yes, it matters that its a Christmas episode and flashback dreams are of Angelus/Angel's memories/emotions. Christmas is often a time for reflecting on one's past, the previous year. The episode takes that one step beyond to examine Angel's past regrets and guilt.

- The curse getting 'broke'. For all of Angel's existence up until a few months ago he didn't know about the 'perfect happiness' clause and that makes his very existence now way more precarious. His knowing of the clause is a weight. He's facing the prospect of not being able to be with the one person who made his miserable experience more bearable.

- Most importantly Angel is having an existential crisis coupled with his guilt. Angel was told, by Whistler, that he could have an important role in helping Buffy fulfil her destiny or whatever. Instead he lost his soul and terrorized the town (or the demon did, whatever, the point is he still has the memories/emotions of the demon committing those acts), suffered in Hell for a hundred years and now, suddenly, he's back. Why?
The First presents him with one answer, his purpose isn't to be Angel but Angelus, to be a great force for evil and that horrifies him. In the end he'd rather die than face even the possibility of that.
The snow at the end- cheesy as hell though it may be- reveals that something else out there other than the First does not want Angel to cease existing, that he might have another purpose beyond being a cursed monster, that there is the possibility of something more. That resolves some of what Angel is going through. The thought that If he has a future then it would make it easier to deal with his past.

- And its important to note that Buffy fails to talk Angel down from his attempt to take his own life. Because Angel's continued existence cannot be about Buffy (or just about Buffy anyway) and has to be about something more, a purpose. That fact becomes more obvious the longer the season progresses....

The ending also comes dangerously close to mirroring real life situations where someone threatens suicide in order to keep someone else in a relationship. It's gross to put the responsibility for Angel's will to live on Buffy's shoulders.

Since you didn't answer or even elaborate let me help; it doesn't, in any way, 'dangerously mirror' a real life situation. It's gross to suggest it.

- Buffy and Angel are not in a relationship when the episode begins.
- When the episode ends they are still not in a relationship.
- There is no coercion on Angel's part, in fact he spends the majority of the episode avoiding Buffy and finding ways to deal with his struggles on his own/desperately seeking help from Giles.
- Angel does not involve Buffy in his decision to end his own life, he does not tell her that he will do it, where he will do it or demand that she watches. He tells her to go away. At this point Buffy is the one that has ended things so its Angel decision basically.
- This not an act or manipulation because, whatever his faults, Angel is sincere in his self-loathing and admitted weakness of character here. He is raw and vulnerable, not calculated.
- The crisis is not resolved by Buffy 'talking Angel down' but by supernatural means outside the control of Buffy.
- Entirely separate from these events Buffy gets closer to Angel always under her own agency, not because she thinks Angel is suicidal if she isn't around because, again, Buffy did not resolve the conflict, she just got some cathartic emotional outlet.

So, I know you detest the character of Angel almost to beyond parody, but don't try and make light of real world serious issues such as toxic coercive techniques by comparing them with what happens here. There is no mirroring. Do Better.
 
F
famicommander
You will do absolutely any amount of mental gymnastics to excuse toxic behavior by Angel. Sad.
Firstly, this is really the first episode which delves into Angel's POV in any real depth so the 'suddenly feeling more guilty' is a bit of a narrative trick. Perhaps Angel always feels this way, kinda, but it was always from Buffy's pov. Why is he so mopey? Here's an insight. So from his perspective ts going to be more prominent. But a few other things to consider:

- Yes, it matters that its a Christmas episode and flashback dreams are of Angelus/Angel's memories/emotions. Christmas is often a time for reflecting on one's past, the previous year. The episode takes that one step beyond to examine Angel's past regrets and guilt.

- The curse getting 'broke'. For all of Angel's existence up until a few months ago he didn't know about the 'perfect happiness' clause and that makes his very existence now way more precarious. His knowing of the clause is a weight. He's facing the prospect of not being able to be with the one person who made his miserable experience more bearable.

- Most importantly Angel is having an existential crisis coupled with his guilt. Angel was told, by Whistler, that he could have an important role in helping Buffy fulfil her destiny or whatever. Instead he lost his soul and terrorized the town (or the demon did, whatever, the point is he still has the memories/emotions of the demon committing those acts), suffered in Hell for a hundred years and now, suddenly, he's back. Why?
The First presents him with one answer, his purpose isn't to be Angel but Angelus, to be a great force for evil and that horrifies him. In the end he'd rather die than face even the possibility of that.
The snow at the end- cheesy as hell though it may be- reveals that something else out there other than the First does not want Angel to cease existing, that he might have another purpose beyond being a cursed monster, that there is the possibility of something more. That resolves some of what Angel is going through. The thought that If he has a future then it would make it easier to deal with his past.

- And its important to note that Buffy fails to talk Angel down from his attempt to take his own life. Because Angel's continued existence cannot be about Buffy (or just about Buffy anyway) and has to be about something more, a purpose. That fact becomes more obvious the longer the season progresses....



Since you didn't answer or even elaborate let me help; it doesn't, in any way, 'dangerously mirror' a real life situation. It's gross to suggest it.

- Buffy and Angel are not in a relationship when the episode begins.
- When the episode ends they are still not in a relationship.
- There is no coercion on Angel's part, in fact he spends the majority of the episode avoiding Buffy and finding ways to deal with his struggles on his own/desperately seeking help from Giles.
- Angel does not involve Buffy in his decision to end his own life, he does not tell her that he will do it, where he will do it or demand that she watches. He tells her to go away. At this point Buffy is the one that has ended things so its Angel decision basically.
- This not an act or manipulation because, whatever his faults, Angel is sincere in his self-loathing and admitted weakness of character here. He is raw and vulnerable, not calculated.
- The crisis is not resolved by Buffy 'talking Angel down' but by supernatural means outside the control of Buffy.
- Entirely separate from these events Buffy gets closer to Angel always under her own agency, not because she thinks Angel is suicidal if she isn't around because, again, Buffy did not resolve the conflict, she just got some cathartic emotional outlet.

So, I know you detest the character of Angel almost to beyond parody, but don't try and make light of real world serious issues such as toxic coercive techniques by comparing them with what happens here. There is no mirroring. Do Better.
Damn, that was one hell of a post. I can agree with pretty much everything you wrote, and I didn't even care that much about Angel in BtVS. I think you were fair in your analysis and it doesn't come off as a biased read of the scenes and how they played out.

I guess my only little grip with your argument (the first part of it at least) would be that I don't think it was possible to get all of these nuances, concerning Angel's ongoing existential crisis, from just watching this episode. I can understand it all better in retrospect, after having watched Angel. I don't think I could have done so on my first watch of 'Amends'. Still, good job on dissecting all of that and explaining it so clearly!
 
thetopher
thetopher
Fair point. And thank you. :) I didn't realize that @CardboardGhost is watching for the first time so I'll remember that in future posts.
@famicommander
Absolute chad move to post a lazy ad hominin in the comments section without even bothering to make any cogent point or backing up your baffling take. It's a discussion board where you consistently fail to debate in good faith. Do better.

@famicommander I agree with the first part. Lots of things seem to be beyond your capabilities it seems. 😛
The rest; fiction is not real life.
 
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F
famicommander
It's far beyond my capabilities to teach you basic media literacy or morality, and therefore a waste of my time.
CardboardGhost
CardboardGhost
This is such an aggressive post... how is it fair to accuse others of "failing to debate in good faith" and then turn around and make a post that doesn't add anything to the discussion except hostility?
"fiction is not real life"

When Faith killed people, did you say it wasn't murder because there is no real-world analog for a Slayer? No, you recognized that murder is wrong regardless.
When Dawn stole a bunch of stuff, did you say it wasn't theft because there is no real-world analog for a Key? No, you recognized that theft is wrong regardless.

So when Angel sleeps with an underage girl (whom he declared himself in love with when she was 15 as he secretly followed her around and peered into her bedroom and bathroom windows in the middle of the night), why on earth would the fact that it's fiction make the act any different than Faith's murdering or Dawn's stealing?

The answer is it's not different. Angel committed statutory rape and you've dedicated your online persona to attempting to use word salads and irrelevant nonsense to obscure that basic, immutable, disgusting fact.

Even if the series took place in a location where sleeping with 16/17 year olds would be legal, it's still morally reprehensible and unjustifiable. If you think 16 or 17 year olds are adults you either don't know any or you're a creep.

This facade of acting like it's different because it's fiction defeats the entire purpose of consuming fiction. All actions that every character in the series undertakes is fictitious, but we are still meant to make moral judgements about said actions.

We identify the villains and the heroes of media by how their actions would define them in our world. That's how we relate to fictional characters. That's why we know the Master is a villain. Because he does stuff that if someone in real life did, everyone would agree is evil.
 
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