What are your thoughts on "Spike" being Buffy's last line in the show?

[merzki]

Do you feel it's a great testament of Spike's significant to her and for the show? Or is it giving him too much importance? Or do you just feel indifferent?

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

No. I think Chosen was a two hour episode crammed into one, and Buffy's intended last line was probably cut. To me, it has no greater significance than a complete lack of sympathy or concern for the twenty or so young women who just died in hell.

 

[Agent Z]

I'm indifferent.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

It's intentional that Buffy's last word is "Spike." Of course, Spike was responsible for closing the Hellmouth and saving the world, but as Buffy says herself, it was also his support and encouragement that gave her the strength to fight that last battle. There's no way he could have done it without Spike, both personally and literally.

Buffy: Do you see this? This may actually help me fight my war. This might be the key to everything and the reason I'm holding it is because of you. Because of the strength that you gave me last night. ("End of Days")

 

[thetopher]

I don't think its significant at all; Buffy owed just as much if not more to all her friends who got her this far, or to her her other ex-vampire boyfriend who got her the Hellmouth closing device to begin with.


Spike giving her a single pep talk at a crucial moment- which in its contents is pretty self-serving- is small recompense for the many years of trying to kill her, all all her friends, wipe out the humanity on his own terms, not to mention making her feel the lowest that she's ever felt about herself.


Buffy's last communication with the audience isn't a word, its that smile; that's what actually matters.

 

[Btvs fan]

@NotASlayer but Spike isn't dead as Angel Season 5 then happens

 

[hoponlilmama]

I think it's a bit of a nothing burger.
To Spuffy fans, it means something to them and they are free to believe so.

I mean, for someone she supposedly was close to and 'loved', her reaction to his death (i.e no reaction at all) is pretty telling. If anything, you could say she was thankful that he knocked out the Hellmouth.

 

[hoponlilmama]

@NotASlayer - Exactly. Big difference.
Also to note, she kissed him when he appeared and sent him away to set up a second front, and remain safe.

 

[NoShip]

The idea that "Spike" being Buffy's last spoken line in the entire series is important is hilarious. Buffy isn't commenting about her "relationship" with Spike. She is just answering Giles' question.

Giles climbs out of the bus. Looks at the crater that was Sunnydale and says "What did this?" Buffy responds "Spike".

The Spike worshipers have claimed some huge significance in Buffy's answering Giles' question since Chosen first aired.

As @thetopher said "Buffy's last communication with the audience isn't a word, its that smile; that's what actually matters."

 

[Btvs fan]

@NotASlayer - Exactly. Big difference.
Also to note, she kissed him when he appeared and sent him away to set up a second front, and remain safe.

Joss Whedon says on the DVD commentary that he wasn't going to do cheers so you were never going to get Spuffy intimacy scenes after the AR though he does say you can imply they slept with each other the night before

 

[merzki]

The idea that "Spike" being Buffy's last spoken line in the entire series is important is hilarious. Buffy isn't commenting about her "relationship" with Spike. She is just answering Giles' question.

Giles climbs out of the bus. Looks at the crater that was Sunnydale and says "What did this?" Buffy responds "Spike".

The Spike worshipers have claimed some huge significance in Buffy's answering Giles' question since Chosen first aired.

I don't believe it's a stretch at all given the importance Spike had in the season. She might literally just be answering a question, but thematically I believe it is an acknowledgement of not only his sacrifice and role in defeating The First, but also his role in destroying the same Hellmouth that has impaired her throughout the entire series. It's not as important as her final smile, obviously, but it is important. It's not a reading I want to make because I am actually not a fan of Spuffy or how prominent he is later on, but it's the one I end up with.

@NotASlayer @thetopher @hoponlilmama while Angel/Wolfram & Hart are technically the ones truly crucial for her winning, thematically it is not as relevant. While she has love for Angel, Spike is who she chooses as her Champion, because of how much she values him. I do not believe they were trying to imply he was disposable for her in anyway because Buffy has not acted as if he was in seasons, but perhabs her smile is strong evidence they were not any kind of endgame. To me, the "second front" seems like an excuse the show came up with for Angel to go away after his cameo.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Joss Whedon says on the DVD commentary that he wasn't going to do cheers so you were never going to get Spuffy intimacy scenes after the AR though he does say you can imply they slept with each other the night before

Yep, I made a whole thread for this a while back: Question - Did Buffy and Spike make love the night before the final fight in "Chosen"?

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 7:18 PM

Buffy's last communication with the audience isn't a word, its that smile; that's what actually matters.

You think that Buffy smiled because Spike is dead? I must say, that's the first time I've heard that take. Most think she's smiling because she's happy they've saved the world, and that she's finally free.

 

[NoShip]

I don't believe it's a stretch at all given the importance Spike had in the season. She might literally just be answering a question, but thematically I believe it is an acknowledgement of not only his sacrifice and role in defeating The First, but also his role in destroying the same Hellmouth that has impaired her throughout the entire series. It's not as important as her final smile, obviously, but it is important. It's not a reading I want to make because I am actually not a fan of Spuffy or how prominent he is later on, but it's the one I end up with.

Whedon is a pretty good writer. If he wanted Buffy to show or state special (or any) feelings for immolated Spike, said feelings would have been shown or stated. We would not have gotten Buffy answering a direct question directly. You have to do some serious cheetah flips to get to "Spike" being remotely significant.

Thematically, Buffy directly answering a question is a really bad way to show Spike's importance to her or anyone else. It is hidden so deep that one has to dig for several hours to find it.

while Angel/Wolfram & Hart are technically the ones truly crucial for her winning, thematically it is not as relevant. While she has love for Angel, Spike is who she chooses as her Champion, because of how much she values him. I do not believe they were trying to imply he was disposable for her in anyway because Buffy has not acted as if he was in seasons, but perhabs her smile is strong evidence they were not any kind of endgame. To me, the "second front" seems like an excuse the show came up with for Angel to go away after his cameo.

There is no 'technically' about it. No Angel = Buffy & Faith & Spike & The New Slayers get massacred. Then we have the joys of watching Giles & Wood & Dawn get eaten (I don't care about Andrew).

Buffy had Xander drug the most important person in her life and take her away from the danger. Dawn was far more important than Spike.

Buffy jumped into Angel's arms when he appeared. They snogged quite excitedly. If Spike actually meant anything at all to her, she would have left out the snogging. Also, it is fairly obvious that Buffy would have never told Spike about the Angel kissage if Spike had not brought it up. Not the behavior of someone who values Spike.

Sending Angel away shows that he is up there with Dawn in importance. Spike isn't.

Spike gets to be the champion because that is what Buffy wanted? Or, she wanted him to shut up? Her comment about whinny vampires indicates the latter. The Scoobies & Spike & Buffy knew nothing about the W&H amulet and Buffy never appears to build any plan around it. So..... how much of a "champion" is Spike?

Whedon's comments about Cheers mean what? I think far more predictive comments were made during S2 & S3 when Whedon stated that the characters were written to be argued about for ever. Behold Whedon's success.

 

[Btvs fan]

Whedon is a pretty good writer. If he wanted Buffy to show or state special (or any) feelings for immolated Spike, said feelings would have been shown or stated. We would not have gotten Buffy answering a direct question directly. You have to do some serious cheetah flips to get to "Spike" being remotely significant.

Thematically, Buffy directly answering a question is a really bad way to show Spike's importance to her or anyone else. It is hidden so deep that one has to dig for several hours to find it.


There is no 'technically' about it. No Angel = Buffy & Faith & Spike & The New Slayers get massacred. Then we have the joys of watching Giles & Wood & Dawn get eaten (I don't care about Andrew).

Buffy had Xander drug the most important person in her life and take her away from the danger. Dawn was far more important than Spike.

Buffy jumped into Angel's arms when he appeared. They snogged quite excitedly. If Spike actually meant anything at all to her, she would have left out the snogging. Also, it is fairly obvious that Buffy would have never told Spike about the Angel kissage if Spike had not brought it up. Not the behavior of someone who values Spike.

Sending Angel away shows that he is up there with Dawn in importance. Spike isn't.

Spike gets to be the champion because that is what Buffy wanted? Or, she wanted him to shut up? Her comment about whinny vampires indicates the latter. The Scoobies & Spike & Buffy knew nothing about the W&H amulet and Buffy never appears to build any plan around it. So..... how much of a "champion" is Spike?

Whedon's comments about Cheers mean what? I think far more predictive comments were made during S2 & S3 when Whedon stated that the characters were written to be argued about for ever. Behold Whedon's success.

Are you for real. You're literally saying we shall ignore comments he made because they don't chime with what you think

 

[hoponlilmama]

Joss Whedon says on the DVD commentary that he wasn't going to do cheers so you were never going to get Spuffy intimacy scenes after the AR though he does say you can imply they slept with each other the night before

Not to be rude, but I'm not sitting through a 40+ minute commentary for the one specific moment. If you know the specific timing of the comment by Joss, that would be helpful 🙂. Also, I don't think he said you can 'imply' they slept together, but rather he left it up to the audience to decide. There's a difference.

It would be pretty gross to show Buffy being intimate (kissing or otherwise) with her rapist and abuser.

I don't believe it's a stretch at all given the importance Spike had in the season. She might literally just be answering a question, but thematically I believe it is an acknowledgement of not only his sacrifice and role in defeating The First, but also his role in destroying the same Hellmouth that has impaired her throughout the entire series. It's not as important as her final smile, obviously, but it is important. It's not a reading I want to make because I am actually not a fan of Spuffy or how prominent he is later on, but it's the one I end up with.

Spike had a number of storylines, but were they of importance? To the arc? Not really. It isn't about a shipping war, but Spike's return/trigger/chip malfunction/soul weren't really central to the The First/Slayer storyline.

Nothing came of it - here's a vampire living with a bunch of potential slayers, who could be triggered to kill them all, inflict some real damage, and The First decided to twiddle its non-corporeal thumbs. Now that would've made Spike important to the story.

What it did serve was that every time Spike got a boo-boo, Buffy would run to him. Xander loses an eye, Dawn gets a bed thrown at her head, and Buffy doesn't even blink, because they're too busy pushing Spuffy and ignoring almost everything else going on around them in s7.

Having Buffy calling herself a 'monster' and taking care of her rapist and abuser is pretty sad to see, unfortunately.

@NotASlayer @thetopher @hoponlilmama while Angel/Wolfram & Hart are technically the ones truly crucial for her winning, thematically it is not as relevant. While she has love for Angel, Spike is who she chooses as her Champion, because of how much she values him. I do not believe they were trying to imply he was disposable for her in anyway because Buffy has not acted as if he was in seasons, but perhabs her smile is strong evidence they were not any kind of endgame.

Actually, Angel mentions first that he'll wear the amulet because he doesn't want to risk Buffy wearing it, considering they don't know much about it and what it can do. Spike thinks he's the 'qualified party' to wear it, but there's also Faith; Buffy doesn't even go to her to talk about it - Faith could be the 'champion'.

For the record, I don't believe Buffy's smile is her being happy that Spike died, it's obvious it's about the fact she's won the battle and is no longer the Chosen One, but we can't ignore that from the time that bus stops and the crew are safe she's got no reaction to the man she supposedly 'loves' being killed.

If anything, there's the connection of answering Giles ("What did this?") and then we get the shot right after of the Sunnydale sign toppling over as a comedic connection that it indeed was Spike - who loved destroying the 'Welcome to Sunnydale' sign. 😂

To me, the "second front" seems like an excuse the show came up with for Angel to go away after his cameo.

It's a tough one because AtS is still on, so some kind of explanation must be made. Considering what they are up against and the stakes (heehee!) are high, having Angel prepare for the worst isn't such a bad idea, thus giving reason for him to leave. Now if AtS had been cancelled at this point, he might've stuck around.

Are you for real. You're literally saying we shall ignore comments he made because they don't chime with what you think

So let's not ignore what Buffy says and does:

-Kisses Angel
-Tells him she sees no future with Spike, but thinks about one with Angel
-Tells the gang in an earlier episode that she's never loved anyone as much as she did Angel
-Makes no effort to deny Spike's 'no you don't, but thanks for saying it' comment, because even William realises she didn't mean it, and it was a kindness said to a dying man.
-Doesn't react after to his death - Xander is even given a brief moment over Anya

For Spuffy fans to say this is her most 'mature' and 'intimate relationship' (erm, what relationship?), her non-existent reaction over the man she supposedly 'loves' (i.e - no reaction whatsoever) is there on the screen for all the audience to see.

She displayed more reaction over Riley leaving that Spike dying. Compare the difference to Angel dying, and Spike dying. Night and day.

 

[garfan]

No. I think Chosen was a two hour episode crammed into one, and Buffy's intended last line was probably cut. To me, it has no greater significance than a complete lack of sympathy or concern for the twenty or so young women who just died in hell.

well, as people like to point out, the killing of the ubervamps and the collapse of the Hellmouth are kind of unconnected

 

[RachM]

I don't think it has anything to do with Spike's "importance" and I've never liked that Buffy's final word in her own show is her name of her abuser.

 

[NotASlayer]

Are you for real. You're literally saying we shall ignore comments he made because they don't chime with what you think

If they contradict what's shown on the screen, yes. That's just insulting the audience (something that sadly happened too often in the final two seasons).

They had a chance to show one thing and didn't. The comment "you can interpret it that way" is a cop out. It's saying "We didn't write it like that but we won't argue with you so we don't alienate you."

If the writers really, truly wanted to show something they could have, but they deliberately chose not to.

 

[NoShip]

Are you for real. You're literally saying we shall ignore comments he made because they don't chime with what you think

Please read my post again. To me, Whedon's Cheers comment is bovine excrement. I get he was trying to keep multiple irreconsileable fandoms on side. It didn't work. He chose the path of least resistence. You choose your meaning.

I take all Whedon's (and everyone else's) commentaries with a grain of salt. The commentaries were shot 6 months to 3 years after the episode being commented on. All eps had been broadcast. The viewers had made their own opinions of the eps known. There is a good bit of self justification in many commentaries by many commentators.

Just because Whedon said it doesn't make it right. He has been on all sides of many arguments over the years.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Second Front: If I recall correctly, David was also filming Angel that week and they couldn't really use him for more than a day of filming. Which is apparently true of all his appearances, really. Quick dirty cameos. I'm sure they wanted to integrate him better into the story, but, they did what they could.