What are your thoughts on "Spike" being Buffy's last line in the show?

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Also, I don't think he said you can 'imply' they slept together, but rather he left it up to the audience to decide. There's a difference.

You are correct! Here is what Joss actually said in the commentary regarding that scene:

"...and to me it's almost the most important shot in the show because it really shows the mystery of their relationship. And that's one where I wanted the audience to fill in the blanks. I wanted them – I wanted whatever you want to have happened, to have happened. If people believe that on their last night together they made love, great! If they believe that on their last night together they talked all night, great! If they believe that they had a fight, great!

Whatever it is, it's up to the viewer and I think that the viewer has earned that, and I love that elliptical nature of their last night together. I think that there should be work for the viewer to do, in that sense, emotionally, because I think it makes it more textured. And that shot of the two of them looking at each other, I just find beautiful."

Source: here

 

[silvermoon]

I find it hilarious that after the most climactic battle of their lives ppl think Buffy is going to dredge up some hysterical sobbing over Spike's death. Buffy has always been on the stoic side, and she is exhausted after some hard core trauma. I think it deeply affected her ,and the way she said the line was quiet, and thoughtful, and true. She and Spike were never really meant to be, but I do believe she loved him. Whedon bolloxed it up b.c. he didn't have the brass ovaries to do anything other than placate Angel fans.

 

[thetopher]

You think that Buffy smiled because Spike is dead? I must say, that's the first time I've heard that take.

Um, no, I don't think that, nor did I even imply it so I guess you still haven't heard it. 😉

I think Buffy's smile has (very) little to do with Spike being gone, its about gaining a measure of freedom. It's about solving her character conflict of duty vs. having a normal life. Buffy can go and have a life or whatever she chooses.

That smile is the final statement that Buffy makes, and its much more powerful than a random bit of dialogue of her answering a question.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yeah, now that I think about it, Buffy's last words to Dawn was this profound speech, the Buffybot's last was about me, but the other me #justiceforbuffybot. "Spike" is a terrible last word. Even Xander's flippent joke about Anya would have been better.

"Hey First, that will put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I find it hilarious that after the most climactic battle of their lives ppl think Buffy is going to dredge up some hysterical sobbing over Spike's death.

Who said anything about 'hysterical sobbing?'

Buffy has always been on the stoic side, and she is exhausted after some hard core trauma.

When she fought to save the world in s2 and had to kill her love Angel - she cried. Sorry, but if the man you apparently 'love' dies then you're bound to have some kind of reaction - which as we've witnessed back then, Buffy does.

This time - crickets. It's pretty telling.

I think it deeply affected her ,and the way she said the line was quiet, and thoughtful, and true. She and Spike were never really meant to be, but I do believe she loved him.

You have every right to believe that she loved Spike and that her saying his name was of some importance. Others think it means absolutely nothing.

I've seen fans laughably link two separate sentences together at the end of the episode as if trying to one-up other fans: "Buffy's last words were 'I love you....Spike'". Talk about reaching.

Whedon bolloxed it up b.c. he didn't have the brass ovaries to do anything other than placate Angel fans.

I mean, rehashing a storyline of a vamp and Slayer is where they went wrong in the first place. Having Spike "fall in love" with Buffy shouldn't have happened. Trying to push them together in s7 after everything Spike did to her was foul.

Again, given everything Buffy said in s7 (see my earlier post) Angel still remains her #1.

 

[Btvs fan]

I find it hilarious that after the most climactic battle of their lives ppl think Buffy is going to dredge up some hysterical sobbing over Spike's death. Buffy has always been on the stoic side, and she is exhausted after some hard core trauma. I think it deeply affected her ,and the way she said the line was quiet, and thoughtful, and true. She and Spike were never really meant to be, but I do believe she loved him. Whedon bolloxed it up b.c. he didn't have the brass ovaries to do anything other than placate Angel fans.

Whedon was never really a Spike fan. Hell the whole AR was because he was frustrated with fans being more sympathetic to Spike than Buffy in S6.
David Fury (no Spuffy fan himself) said that Spike having sex with Harmony in Angel Season 5 was a Joss Whedon insert.
That was Whedons way of giving the finger to Spuffy fans without being explicit.

 

[garfan]

Yeah, now that I think about it, Buffy's last words to Dawn was this profound speech, the Buffybot's last was about me, but the other me #justiceforbuffybot. "Spike" is a terrible last word. Even Xander's flippent joke about Anya would have been better.

"Hey First, that will put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo.

So the problem is with the situation they set it's very hard to have appropriate final words. If they ask "what are we going to do now?" and she says something trite like "anything we want" that dismisses they still have a lot of rebuilding and new building up things. If she starts giving plans, well she deserves a little bit of a break

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

In that circumstance, saying nothing does work better than a definite answer.

IIRC, Going back to the first round of critiques of the episode, was the lack of gravitas for the entire episode. Like, the episode wasn't a true elegy for the series, but just a last chance for Joss to get his stuff in, collect a check and go home.

 

[silvermoon]

Who said anything about 'hysterical sobbing?'

I guess I did.


When she fought to save the world in s2 and had to kill her love Angel - she cried. Sorry, but if the man you apparently 'love' dies then you're bound to have some kind of reaction - which as we've witnessed back then, Buffy does.

If Angel was so good for her, why did he leave town? He abused the snot out of her on a regular basis as Angelus. It's not to say she and Spike were super healthy, but Spike sacrificed a lot for Buffy. What did Angel sacrifice?

This time - crickets. It's pretty telling.

I guess if you need some dramatic moment, and for you it wasn't there. Fair enough. For me, there was a lot to that line.

You have every right to believe that she loved Spike and that her saying his name was of some importance. Others think it means absolutely nothing.

I've seen fans laughably link two separate sentences together at the end of the episode as if trying to one-up other fans: "Buffy's last words were 'I love you....Spike'". Talk about reaching.

That's your opinion. I never thought about it until I saw this post.

I mean, rehashing a storyline of a vamp and Slayer is where they went wrong in the first place. Having Spike "fall in love" with Buffy shouldn't have happened. Trying to push them together in s7 after everything Spike did to her was foul.

Right, you don't ship them, I do.

Again, given everything Buffy said in s7 (see my earlier post) Angel still remains her #1.

If you say so!

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I think people are making too much of the fact that it is the last word. Buffy was asked what caused the sinkhole to devour Sunnydale and she answered, "Spike." This was factually true - the pendant he wore did it and he stayed until the Turok Han genocide was complete. I don't see any shipping significance to it.

 

[RachM]

If Angel was so good for her, why did he leave town? He abused the snot out of her on a regular basis as Angelus. It's not to say she and Spike were super healthy, but Spike sacrificed a lot for Buffy. What did Angel sacrifice?

Angel left town because he recognized that he couldn't be with her as long as Angelus was a possibility and that he, Angel, could not give her a proper future. And most Bangels acknowledge what Angelus did to Buffy and that they couldn't really come back from that. Also, the post you responded to didn't say anything about Angel being good for her, you projected that.

Meanwhile, so many Spuffies just gloss over the emotional, physical and sexual abuse that Spike put her through because "he got a soul for her" - which, mind you, she literally never asked for and which essentially manipulated her into forgiving him. Also, what exactly did Spike sacrifice for Buffy? Dying in the Hellmouth doesn't count, he's a centuries-old vampire who's lived more than enough lives and who ends up coming back to life two seconds later. It's also been establish in this 'Verse that dying doesn't equal atonement "our time is never up, we pay for everything". So, what did he "sacrifice"?

Angel gave up the woman he loved because he realised that a side of him could (and had) seriously hurt her and was not good for her. Spike forced the woman he supposedly loved into forgiving him, while victim-blaming her and making her out to be the bad guy "you hated yourself and you took it out on me".

 

[garfan]

Angel left town because he recognized that he couldn't be with her as long as Angelus was a possibility and that he, Angel, could not give her a proper future. And most Bangels acknowledge what Angelus did to Buffy and that they couldn't really come back from that. Also, the post you responded to didn't say anything about Angel being good for her, you projected that.

So, this is one of the key thing between the various different shippers of the Buffy fandom.

"I know it hurts but I am leaving for your own good" is rather common in the show. Some like or at least respect it. Others despise it

 

[NoShip]

If Angel was so good for her, why did he leave town? He abused the snot out of her on a regular basis as Angelus. It's not to say she and Spike were super healthy, but Spike sacrificed a lot for Buffy. What did Angel sacrifice?

Right, you don't ship them, I do.

If you say so!

You gave the accurate answer. You ship Spuffy. @hoponlilmama doesn't. Spuffies and non-Spuffies (like me) just aren't going to agree.

 

[RachM]

So, this is one of the key thing between the various different shippers of the Buffy fandom.

"I know it hurts but I am leaving for your own good" is rather common in the show. Some like or at least respect it. Others despise it

Sure, not every trope works for every viewer, but personally I'd take "leaves and hurts you for your own good" over stalking, threats of violence, emotional abuse and sexual assault any day.

 

[silvermoon]

Angel left town because he recognized that he couldn't be with her as long as Angelus was a possibility and that he, Angel, could not give her a proper future. And most Bangels acknowledge what Angelus did to Buffy and that they couldn't really come back from that. Also, the post you responded to didn't say anything about Angel being good for her, you projected that.

Meanwhile, so many Spuffies just gloss over the emotional, physical and sexual abuse that Spike put her through because "he got a soul for her" - which, mind you, she literally never asked for and which essentially manipulated her into forgiving him. Also, what exactly did Spike sacrifice for Buffy? Dying in the Hellmouth doesn't count, he's a centuries-old vampire who's lived more than enough lives and who ends up coming back to life two seconds later. It's also been establish in this 'Verse that dying doesn't equal atonement "our time is never up, we pay for everything". So, what did he "sacrifice"?

Angel gave up the woman he loved because he realised that a side of him could (and had) seriously hurt her and was not good for her. Spike forced the woman he supposedly loved into forgiving him, while victim-blaming her and making her out to be the bad guy "you hated yourself and you took it out on me".

I don't particularly wish to live in an, "us vs them" world, if you ship Angel and Buffy, more power to you. I don't harbour any venom towards Bangels, so-called.
Spike cracked up after getting his soul back - evident in season 7. It was obvious by the way he impaled himself on the cross and uttered the words, "I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it" that he was suffering tremendously. I don't minimise that sacrifice, including the trials he went through. How exactly did that manipulate her? She had the choice to either accept that act as a sacrifice, or not. I don't remember any particular forcing of acceptance, because IMO it was authentic. You obviously harbour the opposite opinion. I don't see any "forcing" going on here. I think he was fully aware that he had done something so horrible, so mind-numbingly evil and horrific, that it required this level of sacrifice. He wanted her to have a vampire with a soul, with a conscience, who was not capable of that level of harm. And yes, as a sexual abuse survivor, I'm quite aware of the impact abuse has on people. I live it every phucking day of my phucking life.
As for Angel, he took off and left Buffy to her fate. I don't see that this makes him noble in any way, shape, or form. Maybe it makes him a realist, but it doesn't make him more noble than Spike, or superior. And yes, that's my take on the matter. I see their situations as being quite different, their relationships with Buffy, period. They were very different men before they were turned.

 

[RachM]

Spike cracked up after getting his soul back - evident in season 7. It was obvious by the way he impaled himself on the cross and uttered the words, "I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it" that he was suffering tremendously.

And yet he still taunted Buffy about the attempted rape "Guess this would be first touch since you-know-when", made it all about himself "I've changed", never acknowledged any of the trauma he put her through, literally said he couldn't apologise for sexually assaulting her, showed zero remorse when confronted with the son of the Slayer he murdered, still wore said murdered Slayer's coat as trophy and victim-blamed Buffy while playing the victim. I don't see any "tremendous suffering" there.

I don't minimise that sacrifice, including the trials he went through.

I'm sorry, but I always laugh at the so-called "trials" Spike went through. He's a supernatural creature who enjoys violence and his "trials" were beating up a few demons and letting some bugs crawl on him. Angel went through worse trying to save Darla.

How exactly did that manipulate her? She had the choice to either accept that act as a sacrifice, or not. I don't remember any particular forcing of acceptance, because IMO it was authentic. You obviously harbour the opposite opinion. I don't see any "forcing" going on here.

The soul itself forces her to forgive him. He essentially does the supernatural equivalent of buying flowers after hitting your partner. It says "You can't be mad at me because I made this gesture for you." Spike comes back and repeatedly insists that he's "changed" and that he got the soul "for Buffy" because it's "what she wanted" which she never once said. Again, he's putting the onus on her.

I think he was fully aware that he had done something so horrible, so mind-numbingly evil and horrific, that it required this level of sacrifice. He wanted her to have a vampire with a soul, with a conscience, who was not capable of that level of harm.

No, he wanted to get back into Buffy's pants "Bitch is gonna get what's coming to her". If Spike truly felt remorse once he got the soul then he should have recognised that he should be staying as far away from Buffy as humanly possibly and recognise that everything he put her through is far too traumatic to come back from. Instead he follows her around all season, making her into the bad guy and forcing a victim to coddle and rehabilitate her abuser.

As for Angel, he took off and left Buffy to her fate. I don't see that this makes him noble in any way, shape, or form. Maybe it makes him a realist, but it doesn't make him more noble than Spike, or superior.

I never said Angel was "noble" but IMO he is better than Spike. He recognised all the damage that he caused to Buffy while he was Angelus and he knew that he could never risk putting her in that position again. Spike never had that self-awareness.

Joan the Vampire Slayer I'm definitely not trying to veer off the subject of this thread, but surely you can acknowledge Angelus did awful tings to Buffy too?

Errr, yes, I clearly have acknowledged that:
"And most Bangels acknowledge what Angelus did to Buffy and that they couldn't really come back from that."
"Angel gave up the woman he loved because he realised that a side of him could (and had) seriously hurt her"

And I am onboard with Angel leaving because I think the Angelus period did too much damage to Buffy.

 

[thrasherpix]

Just my two cents, I think there's a lot of difference shown between Angel/Angelus than from Spike/Spike. Season 7 Spike was too much like season 5 Spike to me rather than a different being. Had they SHOWN the change more then I'd buy it more. For example, if Spike gave his coat to Robin and showed remorse, saying it was no longer him, then I'd have seen him different (he could even still threaten Robin if he tried to kill him again, once he gave up the jacket).

As it is, Spike didn't feel truly different to me until he was on Angel. And that strongly impacts how I view Spuffy, even in season 7.

 

[merzki]

Spike had a number of storylines, but were they of importance? To the arc? Not really. It isn't about a shipping war, but Spike's return/trigger/chip malfunction/soul weren't really central to the The First/Slayer storyline.

I'd say yes on account of a lot of The First's efforts being on him. He was either gonna be essential to losing or to winning and him overcoming the trigger without lasting damage it's what you might find underwhelming but it was a resolution. He saved the world and gave Buffy strength to get the scythe and turn the potentials into slayers which is the final aim of the season. Now we could discuss to no end if he was really necessary or if they did it satisfyingly but that's what the show told us.

For the record, I don't believe Buffy's smile is her being happy that Spike died

Me neither just to be clear. I meant she was able to end the show in a positive note.

And yet he still taunted Buffy about the attempted rape "Guess this would be first touch since you-know-when", made it all about himself "I've changed", never acknowledged any of the trauma he put her through, literally said he couldn't apologise for sexually assaulting her,

No, he wanted to get back into Buffy's pants "Bitch is gonna get what's coming to her". If Spike truly felt remorse once he got the soul then he should have recognised that he should be staying as far away from Buffy as humanly possibly and recognise that everything he put her through is far too traumatic to come back from. Instead he follows her around all season, making her into the bad guy and forcing a victim to coddle and rehabilitate her abuser.

I definitely feel Buffy is pressured to take responsibility where she isn't responsible. At the same time, it is not dissimilar to her and Angel after he comes back from Hell. She feels guilt for both triggering Angelus and for sending Angel to Hell, and she takes care of him. Angel never apologized for what he did as Angelus.

I find S7 a great deal more upsetting because it is, like you described, the show is making her up to be the bad guy, while extending a lot of generosity to Spike, but I don't know that I could describe either guy as forcing Buffy to coddle her abuser. Spike was crazy in the beginning, ashamed of her help and did offer to leave. Again, I do think she feels guilty and pressure because of the soul but I can't discount her personal feelings being a big part of the equation as it was with Angel. I dislike the season more for putting Buffy in that position than me thinking Spike is manipulative and obsessed (although sometimes he WAS manipulative).

 

[November]

Do you feel it's a great testament of Spike's significant to her and for the show? Or is it giving him too much importance? Or do you just feel indifferent?

Means he was the most important and bestest bang before the implosion.

 

[thetopher]

At the same time, it is not dissimilar to her and Angel after he comes back from Hell.

Except that Angel is dumped back in Sunnydale by forces beyond his control, his is weak and not in a right state of mind. Buffy (slowly) nurses him back to health and then when he is better she at least tries to distance herself from him.
Spike heads back from Africa directly to Sunnydale and eventually ends up walking into Buffy's house and demanding that they work together. It's a completely different mind-set which speaks to a mind-blowing level of entitlement and not much regard for the feelings of the woman he claims to care about.

Which one of them is demanding, putting the onus primarily on Buffy? I think we know.

Angel never apologized for what he did as Angelus.

By the same token Angel never says anything resembling 'you sent me to hell for a hundred years!' whereas Mr. I Got A Soul For You reminds Buffy what he did for her about a half dozen times.
Angel never blames Buffy for his current suffering, which is where the contrast is.